Interview with Archbishop Peter Jensen and Ray Hadley on 2GB (Radio)

Archbishop Peter Jensen | 12 May 2003

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HADLEY: When we first sought you we knew nothing of the allegations that were to be raised yesterday and then answered by the GG. Do you agree with me, that we’re looking at two entirely separate issues?

JENSEN: Yes, we are Ray and I think presumption of innocence has got to flow in this case, and it puts us all in a very awkward situation about how he can continue in the next weeks, or if he should continue, but they are two separate issues.

HADLEY: The overall view of how your church, the Anglican Church, and other churches, if they can all be lumped in together, have handled allegations of sexual abuse, and it’s documented here I mean even if we go back beyond the accusations against Mr Hollingworth, this poor lady had allegedly been sexually assaulted whilst living in the care of the Anglican church at a very young age, and so it goes on, and this is not an isolated case. I know that you are much more sophisticated, as we all are in 2003, but it must be with some regret in such a senior position you look back at the role of the church in these matters in years gone by.

JENSEN: Yes, and despite the fact as you say, you look back and say, `well we’re more sophisticated today’ - nonetheless (you can’t help but compare) that grave mistakes were made, lapses of moral judgement.

HADLEY: Mm.

JENSEN: We didn’t believe our own teachings I think. In two respects. First of all, our own teachings say to us that human nature is sinful and we do wrong things. And we were too inclined to, sort of, believe the best. Do you follow me?

HADLEY: Yes.

JENSEN: And not to believe victims.

HADLEY: Mm.

JENSEN: So, we couldn’t believe that a clergyman in this situation or other could be guilty of such a thing. So we tended to disbelieve when people came to us, and our own teaching should have told us that whoever we are we’ve really got to be watched, we can’t trust ourselves. The second thing we didn’t believe is that justice comes before compassion.

HADLEY: Mm.

JENSEN: And that making sure that there is justice for the victim is well it’s an essential part of real compassion. And as a result men were allowed to get away with things, even when they were guilty. And we patted them on the head and said `oh well, don’t do it again’. Well, Ray, not good enough. Not good enough ever.

HADLEY: No. You said on Wednesday, although Dr Hollingworth should not allow himself to be rushed or bullied into a resignation, he should do what was best for the victims of sexual abuse. That sounds like a thinly veiled call for his resignation. Now, again I separate what happened previously and what happened yesterday, we’re referring specifically to what happened prior to yesterday.

JENSEN: Yes, I said that I didn’t want to use the public media to give him my advice so to speak, if he wants my advice he’ll seek it privately. And I’m not shouting to him through the megaphone of public media. But as he thinks about this, what I was trusting that he would do is in a sense get space, when I say ..... what I mean is he needs space. His wife is terribly ill.

HADLEY: Mm.

JENSEN: If I’m in that situation I find it very hard to make a good decision anyway. So he needs space. He needs to be able to sit down with good advisers, with his Bible, listening to what God has to say. And he needs to ask himself, I think, what is the loving thing to do for victims. It may be that he’ll come to the conclusion that he ought to stay and do something, or something like that, I’m not presupposing that, but whatever he does it’s got to be loving towards those who have been the victims of fellow clergymen, and who he, and no doubt all of us, have let down so badly.

HADLEY: I don’t try to second guess what’s going through his mind. Because one couldn’t imagine what he’s going through in light of what happened yesterday, and in the light of what’s happening to his wife. But do you think if he’d resigned last week or maybe the week before he was worried or scared that perhaps when this came to light that people would suggest that he only went because he was worried about what was going to come out of a Supreme Court in light of the other accusations?

JENSEN: Yes, it is quite possible and that places him in a very awkward situation now. If he said `look, I’m resigning because my wife’s ill’. Had he said that we would all understand it. Unfortunately, because these other things have come to light, and particularly the last one that you refer to, and because this is so politicised Ray, there’s a lot of venom and malice in public discourse these days.

HADLEY: Mm.

JENSEN: I know we get angry, we should get angry at wrongdoing, but I think he’ll be ...... and people will misjudge his motives in any case. So he’s got to understandably, he’s being very cautious.

HADLEY: I view you as, given your revered position, as a knockabout sort of fellow. You even support a rugby league team in Newtown, but what sort of a fellow is Peter Hollingworth? I mean we don’t know him, he’s the Governor General, the former Archbishop of Brisbane, and that’s a position we revere in both instances, but what sort of fellow is he? I mean, we didn’t seem to get a look at that even with Australian Story, it seems as if there’s some exterior there protecting from what he’s all about.

JENSEN: Unfortunately, I hardly know him myself. I’ve only met him two or three times. He had ceased to be archbishop before I became archbishop, and of course he served mainly in Brisbane and Melbourne, so our paths have hardly crossed. The thing that commended him particularly I think to the Prime Minister was his long record of service of the poor in Melbourne. And that’s his record stands there, it was remarkable at the time and, you know, it still stands as a good testimony to him.

HADLEY: Mm.

JENSEN: My suspicion is that he is a rather private person who may be himself a little isolated while I do say is he has a good track record…

HADLEY: Sure.

JENSEN: But I don’t know is he’s a sort of hail fellow well met sort of person. I think he’s a person more contemplative or introspective.

HADLEY: And so therefore, if we draw the next line, is it not a person a person who’s not suited to public life in many ways?

JENSEN: Oh no, I couldn’t say that, because then you’d have to say that all people like that are not suited to public life, which is manifestly not true.

HADLEY: Yes, but the head of state, I mean it’s perhaps the single most important appointment, as opposed to an elected official, in the country.

JENSEN: It is, and we’ve gone further than my knowledge goes I’m afraid. I don’t know him well enough to make informed comment about that.

HADLEY: Alright, well then now, I’m looking for some help here if you can. There were new allegations yesterday. It was on the periphery of all this, that Mr Hollingworth gave according to reports and I know the Queensland premier has said something about this again overnight gave well he didn’t make a statement but he in fact gave a written explanation to the inquiry in Queensland that apparently there are people suggesting that there was misinformation in that stat. dec. that was handed to them. Do you know anything about that at all?

JENSEN: Haven’t heard anything about that it all Ray, I’m sorry. Statutory Declaration from the Governor General you mean?

HADLEY: Well that’s what they said. That’s what the allegation was yesterday emanating from Queensland, that he had misled the inquiry through some of the things that were put down on paper, because he didn’t give evidence to that inquiry, he gave a written submission, according to the premier.

JENSEN: No, I know nothing about it, and again I’m sorry, ...

HADLEY: No that’s okay. Now, as far as the church is concerned we need obviously to move to the next step, and I would imagine there are women between the age of 50 and older that have similar instances of this sort of abuse. Are there now things set in place so that we can assure women out there that like Rosemary Anne Jarman they won’t be treated as being silly women who are making spurious allegations that can’t be sustained. That the church will now view these people in all seriousness?

JENSEN: The answer to that is yes, and I can answer that particularly in our part of the world here in Sydney. The Anglican Church is a funny organisation. It’s sort of a federation of churches all round Australia, and some of the country dioceses may not be doing as well as the city dioceses are, but I can certainly answer from our point of view. We employ two people, in fact there are more than two people, in a professional standards unit and we have special contact people who are very very sensitive and sympathetic people indeed. They’re carefully instructed, if anyone rings the numbers they get on to this sympathetic person, all the details are written down and they’re always taken seriously, and we try to keep in touch with the person who’s made the complaint. One of the things that we failed to do before was a complaint would come in and then you wouldn’t hear anything for a month. Now, one of the things that I’ve done is to make sure that you’re the person is kept up to date as to what is happening.

HADLEY: Mm.

JENSEN: Now of course Ray two things here: First of all, there are false complaints so we’ve got to be careful with sifting what we hear.

HADLEY: Mm.

JENSEN: Secondly, however, I would like to pinch a freebie from you if I can and say to people out there and it’s not just women over 50, but there are all sorts of people in all sorts of age brackets actually that if you have been in any way abused in Anglican Church then please come forward. We want you to come forward, and one of the reasons is that other people may have been abused as well and other people may still be being abused.

HADLEY: And if you get enough to cooperate then you get some sort of a picture and some sort of credence to the complaint.

JENSEN: That’s exactly true.

HADLEY: As opposed to a lone complaint.

JENSEN: Exactly. Getting evidence is very difficult, but to get two or three people warning us about a particular person is very valuable.

HADLEY: Okay. Just back to the other issue, and again we have the presumption of innocence, now, you would have I would imagine a great knowledge of how records are kept and were kept in the church. The Governor General has said quite simply that he wasn’t in Bendigo, he was never in Bendigo and never attended a youth camp in that area. Would records extend back to the 1960s and beyond that would be able to prove beyond question that the Governor General was not the man that was at that particular youth camp?

JENSEN: Yes - my wife and I were talking about this last night because we too attended camps and all that sort of thing in the 1960s. My guess is that you won’t my guess is, and I mean nothing on paper, but there will be quite a number of people with memories who would have been there at the time and who can say that this is surely testable I would have thought.

HADLEY: In other words they say `I was at that camp and Peter Hollingworth was not one of the people involved in the organisation of the camp’, so to speak?

JENSEN: Well that would certainly apply to the camps we attended in similar ways in the 1960s. There would be certainly mature people with good memories
who would say no look you were there or you weren’t there. So I would be surprised if nothing could be done along those lines. I doubt if there’s anything written down.

HADLEY: Okay. I appreciate your time.

This is a transcript of an interview on Radio 2GB on Friday May 9, 2003.

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