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by Phillip Jensen
Phillip Jensen speaks on Anger as part of a series on emotions in the Christian life, delivered at the Australia Day Convention 2010
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9 hours 47 minutes
Robert Denham commented on Hard Truth # 11: We must help each other more
Should our creatives work for free?
Steve Kryger
June 18th, 2009

Should we pay Christians for doing creative work for the church?

This week I ask Matt Busby Andrews (a senior copywriter and a member of St Andrew’s Cathedral) to share his thoughts – no doubt this will prompt an interesting discussion!


Maybe I could tell a story.

One of God’s truly great evangelistic entrepreneurs in this country would have to be Dr Paul White. To many, he was known as the Jungle Doctor. I think he served as a medical missionary in East Africa for maybe only two or three years. But he came back to Australia and milked those years for the stories. It gave him a national platform as an evangelist. I think he must have published thirty books - apart from dozens of kids comics.

On top of this, Paul bankrolled a bunch of very important creative enterprises. One was Christian television. I know that he backed Clifford Warne and his puppets and Bible stories and sent him to America so Clifford knew how to write and produce children’s television. On the day Channel 7 opened for business, Clifford was able to walk in the door and give them a kids show - with Bible stories. It kept going, on and off, for forty years. The second major work was kicking off Australia’s first Christian advertising agency, Pilgrim International. Essentially, this was built around a guy called Graham Wade. It provided a communications resource for loads of Christian para church organisations, in particular World Vision.

It seemed a thousand evangelistic flowers bloomed around Paul White. God used him greatly. But I honestly think one of the reasons he was so effective was that he paid the Christian creatives around him. Whatever Graham Wade or Clifford Warne or others did, they got recognition and recompense.

I once had a chat with AJ Hamilton who runs all the media stuff for Mars Hill Seattle. I asked him about how he managed to achieve the quality of design across so much of their output - the online work for Death By Love being a prime example. He said they make a habit of recruiting the best designers. Okay I said, but how do you keep them? Answer: they’re the best paid staff in Mars Hill.

Creative communicators are able to greatly accelerate the mission efforts of the church. Sure, you can pull favour here and there, and get a designer to do your next brochure. But the real step change occurs when you bring creatives in as paid missional partners.

Do you agree with Matt – should our churches (and the Diocese more broadly) bring in creatives as ‘paid missional partners’?

Does your church pay for creative input (e.g. design of brochures, development of website, etc), or rely on the input of volunteers? Why?

Duncan Maitland    1 year, 1 month ago
Professional quality creative work takes a lot of time. It would surprise most people to learn just how much of a commitment good creative work takes, and I suspect that once that is understood then the question would become "How can we not pay our creatives?"

A one-off project might be easy for someone to commit to, even something that might ordinarily cost thousands of dollars if done on a commercial basis and take hundreds of man hours, and more often than not professionals (or talented amateurs) will be willing and eager to help out because they want to support the ministry and genuinely care for how the ministry presents itself creatively.

But when unpaid work becomes a regular obligation or an expectation then we risk burning out our creative people - graphic designers, video producers, musicians etc. Our creative people need their weekends too, and burnout does not produce good quality creative work.

Alternatively, if the commitment required from volunteers is too great but your church or ministry cannot afford to pay for creative work, then you may have to be content with what you already have.

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Duncan Maitland    1 year, 1 month ago
... and perhaps that's where the tension lies? Should we be content with what we have, or should creative communication be a more integral part of our mission?

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Lucy Chik    1 year, 1 month ago
"Okay I said, but how do you keep them? Answer: they’re the best paid staff in Mars Hill."

Is Mark Driscoll serious? They are being paid more than he is???

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Steve Kryger    1 year, 1 month ago
Hi Lucy, would it be unreasonable to pay the creatives more than the pastors?

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Matt Busby Andrews    1 year, 1 month ago
The impression I got from talking to AJ is that of the general staff, so the campus pastors and what have you, that they are the best paid. Yeah, I'd be surprised if they were paid more than Driscoll, buy maybe they are. The other interesting thing is that all the all the creative staff are given a title: Pastor. They are considered by the rest of the staff, and the rest of the church, as doing ministry.

As I say, it's not the only way to do it. The fact of the matter is that communication isn't just verbal any more, it's multi-platform. If you're reading this blog, you've proved the point. So we need to bring in the communicators from the fringe into the hub of church activity.

Incidentally, the fact that churches depend on favours is the reason why the visual story of our individual churches is so fragmented. On any given Sunday there would be about a dozen fonts, copy tones and visual themes flying about between the brochures and the powerpoint and signage. This can never be fixed until a church appoints a lead communications partner to pull it all together.

Why is that important? Because until we clarify our voice in the city, no one will really know what we're saying.

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Lucy Chik    1 year, 1 month ago
Steve, I am not surprised that creatives are paid well, just that it appeared they were being paid more than the boss which in the corporate world is unusual. Matt seems to indicate that it may not be the case that they are paid more than Driscoll which would make sense.

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Ian Tyrrell    1 year, 1 month ago
@Lucy:- I think part of the pay of the creatives vs the senior pastor also looks at whether you consider the senior pastor The Boss, or just another fellow worker.

I can see paying highly for an area you use as a distinctive being justified - if these people could get paid (significantly) better to work outside the church, then your top designers may end up leaving, and for a church like Mars Hill, that has creative/arty type people as their target audience, that high pay could be well justified.

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Ian Tyrrell    1 year, 1 month ago
Actually I think MD is titled "Preaching Pastor", not senior pastor - I'm pretty sure they have an elder-based leadership structure at the top end.

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Matt Busby Andrews    1 year, 1 month ago
While I'm on a roll, I thought I'd share my thoughts on another way of building up the communication resources of local churches.

I know that another blogger on this website has suggested that we look at McDonald's as an operational model. In particular, seeing our individual Anglican churches as franchisees and the diocese as the franchiser.

This has some merit when you see that the reason it works so well for McDonald's is that individual franchisees get so much communication material support from the franchisor. So, if I'm the owner of a McDonalds franchise on Parramatta road, I don't have to worry about building my own brand identity, or TV ads or posters or promotional ideas. The franchise does that for me, so the one thing I do is run the business and see what I can do to improve service levels.

Could that work with us? Maybe. Imagine if there was a central repository of fresh creative media - door drops, church videos, mission ideas - all of it done to industry standards. And all of it with a consistent look and feel.

I think that Anglican ministers would actually look forward to seeing what was on offer.

Who would own the little organisation? Hmmm. That's probably for another blog.

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Mike Doyle    1 year, 1 month ago
To throw something else into the discussion mix.....

Generally speaking, people in ministry are not paid for the work they produce. They are paid living expenses (a stipend) so they don't have to be in paid employment, so they can "do" ministry.

If we want to consider creative art a vital part of ministry (and I suspect we do), and if we need more of it (and I suspect we do), maybe the answer is to pay these minister artists a stipend, to free them up for their ministry.

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Allan Dowthwaite    1 year, 1 month ago
@ Matt. I'm in part agreement with you on the central 'branding/creative' strategy. There would definitely be gains to be made for mission by moving in that direction.

The problem is that our parishes aren't 'franchises' in the business sense. To pick up the McDonalds example; when they run a promo - such as their current mini board games - all outlets are expected to run with it, they don't have a choice. Same thing if 'central management' decides there going to sell cheap Big Macs for a month - an individual franchise can't opt out.

In our Anglican system, the rector of the parish is rightly the one who decides what outreach programs to run, what they'll preach on etc. not the central bodies, and getting them all to agree on a common strategy is a big task (e.g.Connect09, as you would well know).

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Justin Moffatt    1 year, 1 month ago
It turns out we are being topical.

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Steve Kryger    1 year, 1 month ago
There are definitely advantages with a decentralised system. Most people would be uncomfortable with a central office dictacting what a rector should preach on.

Yet I wonder if this system might also be a significant disadvantage. For example, because each parish speaks for itself in its suburb/s, we lack the impact of a united, consistent message across our Diocese. Our resources allow us to speak locally, but not on a larger scale.

Also, lack of resources in individual parishes (e.g. not having people who can build websites or design brochures) may lead to well intentioned but mediocre outreach campaigns, where the use of shared resources or buy-in to Sydney-wide campaigns might be more effective.

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Sam Chrisp    1 year, 1 month ago
@Matt makes a crucial point about why this matters, I think:

Incidentally, the fact that churches depend on favours is the reason why the visual story of our individual churches is so fragmented. On any given Sunday there would be about a dozen fonts, copy tones and visual themes flying about between the brochures and the powerpoint and signage. This can never be fixed until a church appoints a lead communications partner to pull it all together.

Why is that important? Because until we clarify our voice in the city, no one will really know what we're saying.

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Simon Godden    1 year, 1 month ago
Centralisation of certain things does not mean that "central office [would be] dictacting what a rector should preach on." There are many areas that the diocese could provide significant support to parishes on, in much the same way a head office provides support to individual branches or franchisees.

For me personally, one area that this could occur is in the area of web site design and hosting. Having gone through the process of establishing a church website (www.gerringonganglican.org.au) as a total amateur this year, I would have found some level of support in this area to be very helpful. It would have been nice to have had some templates for good design to choose from for example. That's not to say that all parish websites should look the same. But I remember thinking whilst in the middle of the process that there were probably a lot of other well-intentioned amateurs under-taking the same steep learning curve I was and that some head office support in this area would not go astray.

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Mike Doyle    1 year, 1 month ago
Trying to get Sydney Anglican churches to work together is like herding cats.

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Emilie Lacoba    1 year, 1 month ago
A couple of thoughts to add to the mix:

I praise God we're having this discussion as there is nothing worse than christians that are out of touch and behind their culture and our culture is such a digital age! (Well bad theology is worse but you know what I mean...)

Unfortunately I think there are far too many well meaning and scrificial christians out there that engage in creative works for their churches and suffer burnout because they have to engage in paid work as well, in order to survive. Christians sadly can be taking advantage of, in the name of sacrificing all for Christ.

Maybe something that would help our churches (those of us who are low on monetary resources and couldn't look at employing creative staff in the near future) should be directing our thoughts and prayers towards wiser stewardship of our money- a reshuffling of priorities to accomodate creative ministry employees- dare I say even asking God- and our church- for more money so that this important gap could be filled? God is a god who always proves Himself to be an amzing provider- maybe we should be testing our faith in Him in this specific area for prayer?

I know in my own church that's the only way we're going to get some good creative help...

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Matt Busby Andrews    1 year, 1 month ago
@Simon and @Allan - I agree, there's no point trying to force the creative on member churches. But if the insights are compelling, the work is powerful, and if it's more affordable because it comes from a centralised bank, well, I think people might just sign up to it anyway.

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Sam Chrisp    1 year, 1 month ago
One of the big problems is that while pretty much every church has some need for a graphic designer, very few have enough work to employ one FT and keep them busy 5 days a week.

Here's a thought. Could the Diocese acted as a sort of aggregator interface between Churches and highly skilled creative/technical resources?

Eg. Churches say to the Diocese that they need a graphic designer 1/2/3 days a week and are willing to pay market rates for the services, and commit to a 12 month contract. As soon as there's 2-3 Churches signed up, the Diocese could hire a resource who can then divide their time between the different Churches and be paid by them accordingly.

Exactly who would contract with who could be a bit fiddly. But this would be incredibly useful in a lot of areas to most Churches, I would imagine. Graphic Design, Website Development, Network/Server Administration, and possibly even other areas such as Sound & Music.

I can dream, anyway!

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Steve Kryger    1 year, 1 month ago
It's good to consider how the Diocese might be able to play a coordinating role.

Churches might not have enough work or money to employ someone full-time, or even three days per week, but 5 churches might be able to fund 5 days per week for a graphic designer, and each gets a day a week. Is this workable? Not sure. But worth throwing into the mix.

Another idea is that churches can buy a certain number of hours from designers that are contracted by the Diocese. This might be at a discounted rate (negotiated on the basis of bulk work), and would give churches an avenue to get design work done as needed.

One challenge with this proposal is the briefing stage - there needs to be people in the church who can effectively brief the designer based on the requirements of the church.

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Steve Kryger    1 year, 1 month ago
I'm not suggesting that everyone who does this work for churches needs to be paid. I have been involved in different projects, and have volunteered my time for each of these.

However, I'm conscious that some churches won't have anyone on board who can help, and the next step is to look to outsource.

Another idea to throw into the mix is a database of people willing to volunteer their time to design church websites, graphic design products etc.

Anyone want to add their name to that list?!

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Sam Chrisp    1 year, 1 month ago
Steve, great thoughts. The buying-hours variation could work too. But yes, as you say, the churches can't completely out-source everything. They need internal staff who at least "get it" enough to communicate requirements to the out-sourced contractors in a coherent manner.

I think in any of these situations an ongoing relationship is ideal, because over time (one would expect) the Church and the contractor would understand each other better and work more efficiently. Moreover, from a contractors perspective, a new client every week isn't necessarily ideal.

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Jeremy Halcrow    1 year, 1 month ago
ummm Steve.. Anglican media tried this idea with Total Visual Solutions for nearly a decade. It doesn't work.

The bottom line is that only a handful of parishes are willing to pay for this kind of work. Most prefer to call on parishioner volunteers.

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Steve Kryger    1 year, 1 month ago
Jeremy, thanks for the historical note. I wonder if "it didn't work" is the same as "it won't work"?!

Perhaps there's a bigger question here for churches (and para-church ministries) to consider - what is the role of design and web in ministry, and how essential is it to have good design, and good websites?

A second question is this - if churches don't have people in their midst with these skills, what should they do?

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Sam Chrisp    1 year, 1 month ago
@Jeremy: Interesting to hear that. When did that stop, roughly? Was the main problem a lack of interest? Do you think that if more Churches were tech savvy and convinced of the cost/benefit case for it, it could work?

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Duncan Maitland    1 year, 1 month ago
I think talking about money masks the real question. Do our churches value creative production highly enough in the first place anyway?

The question "Should our creatives work for free?" is in a way offensive. Not necessarily because of the pay issue, but because it implies that creative work is useful, but not valuable. It implies that creative work wouldn't be missed if it wasn't there. (I'm not trying to read into your thoughts Steve, that's just how I read the question myself.)

So I think I'm in agreement with Matt when he suggests treating creatives as missional partners. Or have I twisted your words too much?

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Jeremy Halcrow    1 year, 1 month ago
Its not my place to say how Anglican Media will move forward with that strategy. Allan (my boss) may or may not want to answer that.

One issue is that we haven't seen a regular flow of work in any one skill set: video, graphic design, copy-writing, web development; which makes it difficult to employ people. It tends to cycle a little. Suddenly you get a surge of parishes wanting websites then nothing for 12 months, instead everyone wants a new brochure.

I suspect the reason is that in parish-land websites, brochures, logos etc are seen as quite long-term investments (with 5 year + shelf lives) and so they are not turned over very quickly. Therefore parishes will only spend serious $$ on one aspect of their communication at any one time.

I also think graphic design is pretty competitive. There are a number of well regarded Christian freelance designers out there that parishes use.

Running a online list/pool of freelance Sydney Anglican creatives (with referees) might be a helpful way forward.

Its probably worth hearing from a rector on their perspective on their needs v resources.

At my church, I am sure the treasurer is quite happy that I donate my professional skills for free. If you are in F/T job that should be the way.

The real grey area comes for freelancers who may juggling freebies for a number of ministries.

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Mike Doyle    1 year, 1 month ago
Should welcomers welcome for free? I find that an offensive question to ask! It implies welcomers are useful, but not valued. It implies welcomers wouldn't be missed if they weren't there.

It's a wrong mindset to work out how much we value someone or something based on how much we pay them.

I'm not saying creative artists should work for free. I'm also of the persuasion that we need more creative artists at "work" in our churches. But lets be careful to think this issue through the same way we think through all ministry decisions.

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Matt Busby Andrews    1 year, 1 month ago
@Duncan - you've got my gist. It is about seeing creatives as missional partners. Being paid is one important way of showing that you're serious. One thing I've noticed lately is designers and art directors being paid a "recognition fee" in the parachurch space. So that's not the full rate (which for a senior designer might be 180/hr), but a set fee which show that both parties are recognised for what they do.

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Brett Bovey    1 year, 1 month ago
Well, what an interesting discussion! Marketing, strategies, creative communications, fonts and themes, brochures and powerpoint, mediocre outreach campaigns, professionalism, the digital age, out of touch, lack of resources, centralisation, franchising, graphic design.... Are we talking about God's people gathering to encourage one another in Christ or are we talking about the latest business fads to market our organisation, albeit the Anglican Church in Sydney. I suspect that perhaps it is time to raise the bar for fundraising and to get serious about ministry and to start setting stipends for the welcoming pastor, the hospitality pastor, the prayer pastor, the public reading pastor, the worship pastor, the music pastor, the drama pastor, the visiting pastor, the youth pastor, the purchasing pastor ... (lol). Hmmmm

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Craig Schafer    1 year, 1 month ago
Jeremy asked for a rectors perspective. My slightly random thoughts;
I scanned this discussion and it's not clear to me what value 'getting head office involved' would add other than the 'online list' of creatives that Jeremy mentioned; that would make life easier. I don't think adding in a diocesan layer would make it cheaper than finding a freelancer somewhere on the planet at a price that represents good value....(see next post)

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Craig Schafer    1 year, 1 month ago
I have some ‘creatives’ in my church now, and have in the past. I expect them to use the gifts that God has given them to the life of His church without payment. When I was consulting I helped a number of church groups around the traps with ‘effective meetings’ input etc. This took effort and prep, but I would never have expected any sort of payment and I would have refused it had it been offered. On the other hand we want to ensure that people are not being burdened by what we ask of them, so there are things we outsource and things we call on them for to try and ensure that doesn’t happen. We used Andrew Nobbs at Barton Design for our logo and stationary and he is fantastic. I’ve used Lim at Design Acts for post cards and brochures which have been great and Lim gets fantastic prices for printing. I used Dani Treweek for logo and web design at VHCC and she did a great job too but I don't know how much she's doing nowdays....(one more - I hate this character limit thing)

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Craig Schafer    1 year, 1 month ago
My background makes me passionate about effective communication and I’m a visual thinker so there are times when a church's approach makes me want to crawl up into the foetal position under a pew rocking gently. BUT, I need to remember that this stuff isn’t the main game; a church of 7 fonts drop shadow fonts, green on purple powerpoint, checkerboard transitions and clipart can be effective for God it they talk to their friends about Jesus. And the church with the slick website and killer logo can teach heresy.

This stuff is important, but it is not the main game.

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Lucy Chik    1 year, 1 month ago
Thank you Craig.

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Craig Schafer    1 year, 1 month ago
I should finally add that it's been my experience that Christian creatives I've partnered with have offered very significant discounts because it is a ministry related project - yea team!

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Matt Busby Andrews    1 year, 1 month ago
@Brett - you're right it is time to raise the bar with fundraising. It's always taken funds to help churches proclaim Jesus. Now, what would it take to raise that bar?

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Jeremy Halcrow    1 year, 1 month ago
Thanks Craig - and I trust you liked the free photos I supplied you ;)

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Craig Schafer    1 year, 1 month ago
I would have like them more if you'd photo shopped them to slim me down, remove the grey hairs and enhanced the muscles!

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Lucy Chik    1 year, 1 month ago
@Matt
"Now, what would it take to raise that bar?"
Giving sacrificially of our money and our time (whatever that time may be worth).

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Matt Busby Andrews    1 year, 1 month ago
I guess my main argument is that in the business of evangelism and building the church, investing in communication is strategic, not incidental.

This point was made to me in 1993 when I went to a Willow Creek conference and heard a lady called Nancy Beach speak.

Nancy's story was interesting. She was one of only a handful of Bill Hybel's ministry partners still around from the start, and her role from the start was presentation. She had final authority on the look of things, so that includes projections, stage design, video, drama even the music. A very powerful role, and a big thing for someone like Hybels to handover. And she was fussy. She once got the church gardener to redo the flowers because one bloom was clashing with the another. Okay - so bordering on the freakish I know. But the important thing I remember is that she said the first thing they spent their meagre budget on was the printing. They got it everything professional typeset, they wore the extra costs of design and good stock.

Indulgent? A distraction from the preaching of the word? It is if you think that only the physically preached word counts. If you think that since God has always communicated his Word to us through lots of media, then suddenly the humble pamphlet really does matter.

And I don't think it's a coincidence that both Mars Hill and Willow Creek made a big investment in communication, and both have ended up being able to communicate, not to hundreds, but to hundreds of thousands.

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Dave Lankshear    1 year, 1 month ago
Hi Brett Bovey,

One word of caution: IF you currently enjoy the odd-freebie from a designer in your church, make sure that the church understand that all design requests go through some central clearing person or co-ordinator. Otherwise your creatives can be inappropriately “hit on” by someone with unrealistic expectations and no idea, and from personal experience that can be quite insulting.

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Jeremy Halcrow    1 year, 1 month ago
Thanks Dave. You've actually broached an issue I wanted to raise but wasn't sure how to politely. This is a major reason why our TVS initiative hasn't worked.

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Allan Dowthwaite    1 year, 1 month ago
Dave's advice is very solid. I've seen the same thing happen at my church. I'd also add that the designer needs to be clearly told by the minister (or whoever the coordinator is) that it's OK for them to say 'no' to such requests.

Your 'half-baked booklet' example is all too familiar. I often get asked how much it costs to produce a video - to which I respond by asking how much it costs to build a house. Show me the plans and then I'll tell you what it'll cost and how long it'll take.

I think we also need to understand the often cyclical nature of creative work when asking people to volunteer their talents and time. These types of jobs are rarely constant in their demands. A designer might have weeks of working into the small hours to meet a deadline, and then weeks when not much happens.

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Dave Lankshear    1 year, 1 month ago
The other thing is, there are quite a few good Christian freelancers out there. I say let the market do its thang.

However, one web page that really MIGHT be helpful is a "Working with your designer" page. It would be a basic description of the graphic design process, what usually can and can't be done (especially with print times), where REAL costs lie, usual expectations, how copy and images usually work, legal issues, etc.

It would be updated annually to include a bunch of feedback and suggestions from industry professionals, probably just filling out a feedback form. "What are some of the issues you have working with Christian organisations?" etc.

That way, Joy and I wouldn't have to "train up" our Christian clients from scratch every time and it would save a lot of blood, sweat, and tears out there in the broader design community as well. Basically, I think the page needs to be written for a specifically Christian audience that *sometimes* seem to have a less professional mindset and just assume more of us than our non-Christian clients.

EG: UNREALISTIC IMAGE REQUESTS
Extremely specific image requests would sometimes involve a $5000 to $10,000 photo shoot with models, props and camera man hired just for the SUPER-SPECIFIC image some clients seem to imagine is just "out there" somewhere.

(Note to our long-standing clients: you are great to work with and know how to brief, how much time is required, and what projects are realistic.)

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Sam Chrisp    1 year, 1 month ago
I reckon Matt's point on how importantly communications are viewed is crucial.

Pretty hard to seek financial support when most people don't understand the need or benefit in the first place.

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Tom Barrett    1 year, 1 month ago
This discussion is fantastic - thank you to all contibutors!

Another angle on the question of whether a central clearing house for creative work/workers would be useful: if I was a creative worker who worked 90% of the time for high-paying corporate clients, I'd be happy to give a decent discount to church clients. But if I got all my work in the church world I'd have to charge all those churches market rates. Seems like an argument against centralisation to me. Not to mention the "Christian ghetto" danger which operates in so many areas.

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Dave Lankshear    1 year, 1 month ago
Agreed Tom. Freelancing for both secular and Christian work is probably the way to go, and helps the designer stay "in touch" with what is happening in the secular world. However, working from home (as many designers do) also requires dedication to visiting book stores, "getting out there" etc to stay contemporary. It's a life of constant observation and study.

We have to say that we love our Christian work, and consider it our great fortune to work on so many interesting articles and work with so many great clients, who we count as friends and brothers and sisters in the Lord. We get to "polish" some very thought provoking pieces, and it is generally my job to read them and try and think of image concepts for many of them, some of which are quite 'technical' theological pieces... which is both challenging and rewarding!

Also, the example I gave above about a church member requesting a large design job from us was resolved fantastically. Once our minister heard about it he jumped to our defence straight away! I was just commenting on how it can be perceived at the time, but it wasn't really a big deal and right now everything is running smoothly. "It's all good" as the youth of today say.

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Joshua Michael Maule    1 year, 1 month ago
I think Tom is right. There will be times when it's right for someone to provide their creative talents free of charge (or at a discounted rate) to their church. There will also be times when it's good for someone to expect money for working creatively for the church.

The responsibility rests on the shoulders of the person with the creative skills to name their price from the outset. And not to be pushed into doing something for free - especially if they're freelance and need to use their time for earning money.

If a church's computer system malfunctioned, an expert would be called and paid for fixing it. No one would expect an IT worker from the church to take a week off to solve the problem. I think churches can have a different attitute to creative work.

I also like Craig's point that: " ... this stuff isn’t the main game; a church of 7 fonts drop shadow fonts, green on purple powerpoint, checkerboard transitions and clipart can be effective for God it they talk to their friends about Jesus."

Though I don't think Sydney Anglicans are in any danger of giving aesthetics too much importance.

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Jeff Atack    1 year, 1 month ago
The first comment mentioned musicians in the "creatives" category...

The rest of the discussion has focused on graphic designers, but do muso's fit into the same category, i.e. giving of their talents??

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Dave Lankshear    1 year, 1 month ago
I also like Craig's point that: " ... this stuff isn’t the main game; a church of 7 fonts drop shadow fonts, green on purple powerpoint, checkerboard transitions and clipart can be effective for God it they talk to their friends about Jesus."

OK, but then neither is morning tea, building cleanliness, the Pastor's dress code, having any music at all, enough seating, a comfortable temperature in church, a friendly and well spoken "service" leader, polished welcomers... I mean, if we're going to cut it back to basics, why do any of that Western stuff? We could cut all that stuff out and get back to basics.

Why bother?

One word: missiology.

We want to do everything we can so that only the gospel itself offends people... not us. And so, as far as possible without compromise, we try to be "culturally sensitive" so that we can communicate our care for these Westerners we're ministering to.

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Craig Schafer    1 year, 1 month ago
For those of us who spent 4 years being rendered incapable of reading something out of context (seriously, we develop a facial tick if someone makes us), what Craig actually said was:

This stuff is important, but it is not the main game.


Just in the interests of, you know, effective communication.

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Dave Lankshear    1 year, 1 month ago
Good stuff! I can agree with that. :-)

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Brett Bovey    1 year, 1 month ago
Hi Dave Lankshear, thank you for addressing your post #41 to me personally. However, I can be a bit thick at times, and I missed the significance of why that particular post was addressed to me?

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Dave Lankshear    1 year, 1 month ago
Hi Brett,
No, the communication problem was mine. I didn't write that post very well at all and I hope I can edit it at sometime because it comes across as if it is still a "live issue" with our church, but it is all resolved.

I was responding to this bit:

Are we talking about God's people gathering to encourage one another in Christ or are we talking about the latest business fads to market our organisation, albeit the Anglican Church in Sydney.

I suspect that perhaps it is time to raise the bar for fundraising and to get serious about ministry and to start setting stipends for the welcoming pastor, the hospitality pastor, the prayer pastor, the public reading pastor, the worship pastor, the music pastor, the drama pastor, the visiting pastor, the youth pastor, the purchasing pastor ... (lol). Hmmmm


I understand graphic design can seem a bit "business fad" to those in 'full time' ministry, and that the MOST important thing is the preaching of the word. But you seem to imply here that designers don't need to be paid for their work, just as we don't pay people for welcoming.

I was just pointing out how much that can cost us designers, and how insensitive and demanding some requests can be at times. After SOME parishioners have finished their list of demands, I feel like asking...

"Anything else? Would you like me to move the whole house an inch to the left?"

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Brett Bovey    1 year, 1 month ago
thanks for that dave, very helpful.

i would not like to imply that graphic design is a 'business fad', and i can see how this comes across from my words. i am quite sorry for this. i was attempting to raise the issue of professionalism in church life, and specifically the marketing approach. there is always a line to be drawn as to how 'professional' churches should be, and especially now in the name of evangelism. i was bemused by this discussion and wondered if i was the only one who felt this may have been taking business practices too far.

i must say that where a church seeks to look professional, and seek quality graphic design, then you get what you pay for. it is unfair to ask the professional creative artist to use their services pro bono as it is unfair to ask the christian doctor for a free consultation. though it is also a personal issue of gently pointing these things out (eaier said than done of course!).

the second paragraph you quote was an attempt at hyperbole and raising the question of which staff we should pay for in our churches (my thought is perhaps none). personally, i wonder about the way our churches look for leaders from outside their own gatherings, recruit them and then pay them to be elders. this system itself seems to offer considerable role confusion. isn't it a bit like hiring a wedding planner and then asking them to take on the role of father of the bride? i hope, given the limits of the illustration, my point makes sense.

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Nick Duke    1 year, 1 month ago
thanks guys -

struggled with a number of the tensions raised in this thread for our church.
Wanted to say I appreciate your thoughts...

Great to see a shift in attitudes to design and its role in gospel communication.
Lots to learn - but glad there are people thinking hard about it.

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Tom Magill    1 year, 1 month ago
As a parish minister who - by virtue of being slightly creative - finds himself doing a good amount of design work in his church, what I suggest might be helpful at the end of this discussion is a list of resources dabblers like myself can turn to in order to produce reasonably presented material for our churches when we either can't afford or can't find a professional able to do the work for us.

I'd like to suggest some of the things I use that others may find helpful.

A number of sites offer royalty-free stock photography. I use: http://www.sxc.hu/

Similarly, there are many free font sites out there with good things on offer. I like www.1001freefonts.com and www.dafont.com.

For document distribution you often need to put something into .pdf format and there are a number of free solutions for that too - apart from owning a MAC :). I use cutePDF Writer.

A number of our ministries have utilised the cheap (sometimes 'watermarked') stationery and promotional items at www.vistaprint.com.au, especially good for business card style 'flyers'.

There are others but I am approaching the character limit. We also have a fantastic graphic designer at church who graciously does a lot for us ...

... just in case he is reading this. ;)

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Dave Lankshear    1 year, 1 month ago
If you use a Mac, don't forget the Pages templates (Pages is in iWorks, the cheap Mac version of "Microsoft office — word".) Just learn pages and you're all good. Watch this video on Pages.

Then there's all the FOSS (Free Open Source).

Internet Explorer? No way! = use Firefox instead.

Photoshop and photo editing? = Gimp!

Microsoft Office No Way! = Use Open Office instead.

Desktop publishing? Use Scribus (if you need something more advanced than Pages).

Web design? Use Kompozer or just install a Wordpress blog that can function as a fairly powerful website package, with predesigned themes to choose from and edit.
Note: Wordpress.org is where they have the software you can download for free, wordpress.com is where you can get them to host a site (with your own url for $15 upgrade).

3d animation (Shrek like movies?) Blender

Here's a list of the Top 10 Free Open Source Software packages you'll need and how they rate against the commercial stuff.

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Tom Barrett    1 year, 1 month ago
Dave, I like your FOSS style, though I'm sure you'd agree with the caveat that getting the software doesn't automatically get you the skills to make good stuff with it. (IE Owning a word processor doesn't make me a good novelist). Just something I think people need to keep in mind!

I've found scribus a bit flaky, to tell the truth, but the combination of OpenOffice.org and GIMP goes a long way for me.

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Dave Lankshear    1 year, 1 month ago
Yeah, check the Pages tutorial though! ;-)

I thought that Moore College taught the 7 Habits of Highly Effective Ministers, with the first 3 laws saying "Use Mac, Use Mac, Use Mac"? What about the Pastoral care lessons in dealing with parishioners driven cranky by Microsoft? I mean, how are we going to "Connect09" if there's confusion on THIS MOST IMPORTANT FRONT!?

(Wanders off to take a Panadol and lie down for a bit... ;-)

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