AUDIO

by Phillip Jensen
Phillip Jensen speaks on Anger as part of a series on emotions in the Christian life, delivered at the Australia Day Convention 2010
LATEST COMMENTS
3 minutes
Craig Schwarze commented on Thirteen propositions on theology
1 hours 39 minutes
Michael Canaris commented on Top 7 political trends in 2010
4 hours 19 minutes
Graham Stanton commented on Hi, I’m new here
6 hours 0 minutes
Tom Magill commented on Football and Religion
‘God in control’? Hmmmm
Bishop Robert Forsyth
July 11th, 2009

Today a bit of reflection and theology.

Whenever something really terrible happens, either personally or in life, Christians often console each other and explain it by saying, “God is in control”. 

I must say I often wonder whether that is so helpful or even, taken literally, quite as true as it sounds.

For a start, of course, the phrase as such is not in the Bible.  The language of control is a modern phrase, of a mechanical or managerial connotation. 

But the real question is, do the gospel and the Scriptures permit us to believe that everything that happens that is bad is in some real sense willed by God with a purpose behind it?

Of course, there are very clear instances when this is the case, or at least where God plainly takes up or even plans a thing to happen which humans mean for evil but God means for good.  The most obvious case is the story of Joseph “Even though you intended to do harm to me, God intended it for good, in order to preserve a numerous people, as he is doing today.”. (Genesis 50.20): 

The supreme example is none other than the death of our Lord Jesus Christ who was handed over “according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God” Acts 2.23 The greatest good out of, in one sense, the greatest evil.

But can we extrapolate from these special cases, if they are indeed to be taken as special cases, to all suffering and evil?  Or are the statements of Peter about the Cross and Joseph about his own story intended to be understood as remarkable providences?

I was awoken to these questions from my theological slumbers by reading David Bentley Hart’s work reflecting upon the 2004 tsunami.  He wrote a column in the New York Times and then an article in First Things (“Tsunami and Theology”, First Things March 2005).  He then turned these thoughts into a very impressive short book, The Doors of the Sea (2005).  I recommend you actually look at it yourself and see what you think.  It certainly got me thinking. 

In his article, I stopped at this astounding sentence in “Tsunami and Theodicy”:

Simply said, there is no more liberating knowledge given us by the gospel — and none in which we should find more comfort — than the knowledge that suffering and death, considered in themselves, have no ultimate meaning at all.

So, implies Hart, stop trying to give a meaning to suffering and death to those suffering or a critical world demanding to know “why?”
One reason I stopped and thought hard was that I realised that for us typically the first thing we want to say about suffering and death is “God is in control” and then try to explain, at least to ourselves what he is doing. But Hart says that this is not the way the New Testament thinks about such matters.

Christians often find it hard to adopt the spiritual idiom of the New Testament — to think in terms, that is, of a cosmic struggle between good and evil, of Christ’s triumph over the principalities of this world, of the overthrow of hell. All Christians know, of course, that it is through God’s self-outpouring upon the cross that we are saved, and that we are made able by grace to participate in Christ’s suffering; but this should not obscure that other truth revealed at Easter: that the incarnate God enters “this cosmos” not simply to disclose its immanent rationality, but to break the boundaries of fallen nature asunder, and to refashion creation after its ancient beauty — wherein neither sin nor death had any place. Christian thought has traditionally, of necessity, defined evil as a privation of the good, possessing no essence or nature of its own, a purely parasitic corruption of reality; hence it can have no positive role to play in God’s determination of Himself or purpose for His creatures (even if by economy God can bring good from evil); it can in no way supply any imagined deficiency in God’s or creation’s goodness.

His conclusion about the 2004 Boxing Day tsunami and terrors like is that there is no ultimate meaning or purpose in them.  But there hope, meaning and purpose is in the gospel.

I do not believe we Christians are obliged — or even allowed — to look upon the devastation visited upon the coasts of the Indian Ocean and to console ourselves with vacuous cant about the mysterious course taken by God’s goodness in this world, or to assure others that some ultimate meaning or purpose resides in so much misery. Ours is, after all, a religion of salvation; our faith is in a God who has come to rescue His creation from the absurdity of sin and the emptiness of death, and so we are permitted to hate these things with a perfect hatred. For while Christ takes the suffering of his creatures up into his own, it is not because he or they had need of suffering, but because he would not abandon his creatures to the grave. And while we know that the victory over evil and death has been won, we know also that it is a victory yet to come, and that creation therefore, as Paul says, groans in expectation of the glory that will one day be revealed. Until then, the world remains a place of struggle between light and darkness, truth and falsehood, life and death; and, in such a world, our portion is charity.

Why I found him so liberating is that rather than trying to find a unitary explanation of evil, he enabled me again to call evil evil and not pretend that it really is a good thing if only we understood its purpose. 

You may remember the analogy of our lives and all the life of the world looking like a mess, but it’s really only the back of a tapestry.  Turn it around and you will see that everything fits in in a perfect plan.  I’m not sure that that makes sense of prayers like the one which Jesus told us to say, “Your will be done on earth as in heaven”.  Not yet, but it will be. 

Hart is strongly critical of those (like Calvin apparently) who say that what God permits to happen he wills to happen. In The Doors of the Sea, he goes straight to the question in John 9 about the man born blind and draws attention to what it is we do know certainly about Christ, God’s attitude to suffering: 

One might read Christ’s answer to his disciples’ question regarding why a man had been born blind – “that the works of God should be made manifest in him” (John 9:3) – either as a refutation or as a confirmation of the distinction between divine will and permission. When all is said and done, however, not only is the distinction neither illogical nor slight; it is an absolute necessity if – setting aside, as we should, all other judgments as suppositious, stochastic, and secondary – we are to be guided by the full character of what is revealed of God in Christ. For, after all, if it is from Christ that we are to learn how God relates himself to sin, suffering, evil, and death, it would seem that he provides us little evidence of anything other than a regal, relentless, and miraculous enmity: sin he forgives, suffering he heals, evil he casts out, and death he conquers. And absolutely nowhere does Christ act as if any of these things are part of the eternal work or purposes of God. (Doors of the Sea p.86-7)

So I am not sure whether “God is in control” is quite the way I want to put it any more.  I don’t want to or cannot deny that God is God and that in a real sense nothing happens outside of God’s oversight. Or that he can and does providentially bring good out of evil. And yet I think I should abandon any kind of simple or unitary calling whatever happens “God’s will.” Announce the gospel instead.

JeanPierre Henderson    7 months ago
"I don’t want to or cannot deny that God is God and that in a real sense nothing happens outside of God’s oversight. Or that he can and does providentially bring good out of evil. And yet I think I should abandon any kind of simple or unitary calling whatever happens “God’s will.” Announce the gospel instead."

This is wonderful. Thank you.

In the mystery of God's love, somehow beyond or overwhelming the physically measurable body of justice, there exists an ethereal measurement which offers foundation for justice' body of surety; grace, or perfect, eternally timed compassion. This is found here in your thoughts about the Gospel.
Only in His will is substantive reality from every possible perspective of any created child; thus His intent becomes matter. Acceptance finds that because we are, we can trust; which is hope. (Or as far as we are able to will at all, we are all the more His.) The reality that 'everything whatsoever will be made good' is the Gospel's take of a 'magical' assertion, a universal good news (ie. for anyone, even the most utterly secular) worth appreciating; if only for its inexorably unexpected grandeur! We must be made to be infinitely more than we are now; evidenced by how we gain objectivity by simply doing our duty, however mundane, in any/every moment! In other words our most subtle and best dreams will somehow come true, no matter what; guaranteed.
This is a musing in why to how I am, and defend, being a Christian.

#1 of 43 top
Luke Stevens    7 months ago
YES!

This "God is control" idea seems to be endemic in Syd Ang circles, mostly due to interpretations of Rom 8:28 & Hebrews 12. Why are we so insecure? I find it very unhelpful:

1. It doesn't make sense. If God is "in control" (whatever that means) in your moment of suffering or tragedy, isn't that *more* of a problem than if he was a few steps removed? God's "control" seems to be quite meaningless, given the terrible thing happened anyway!

2. It's incredibly narcissistic & individualistic. To me this idea reflects an unhealthy obsession with self, where God exists as a balm for *our* insecurities & *our* need for meaning. It makes God an actor in the drama of our small lives, not ourselves as small actors in God's infinitely bigger story.

Also, stop & think about all the suffering in the world at any given moment - why is God especially "in control" of your mundane problems?

3. Suffering isn't inherently meaningful. Christians *love* post hoc rationaliziations to impart meaning where non exists. It took me years of chronic illness to work this out, as I'd been so conditioned to believe that suffering must result in profound insight, resolution, then application of said insight.

Again, take a look around at all the suffering in the world! Where's the meaning?

Finally, the bible (with those exceptions) talks about suffering & trials, not a God magically "in control" & wrapped up in our trivial problems as we are.

#2 of 43 top
Luke Stevens    7 months ago
Oh, and as a bonus point - yes, I find the "God's in control" view comes awfully close (indistinguishably close, in my view) to ascribing evil to God, just so long as there's some (usually made up) silver lining of "good" that comes from said evil. What kind of God is that?

#3 of 43 top
David Palmer    7 months ago
I think the good Bishop has picked a very big subject that this side of glory we will never get to the bottom of.

This morning I preached from 2 Cor 12:1-10

What I find interesting is that the thorn is presented as the work of both Satan & of God.

Of Satan certainly and presumably that Paul might curse God or just to make life hell for Paul.

Yet of God as well, because I think that is the implication of ‘”was given me”, and if of God then there must be a purpose why God has given the thorn (I note in passing that we get squeamish and want to say ‘permitted by God”).

The following verses clearly demonstrate that there is a purpose behind God’s action.

In raising this important issue I think Rob is reminding us, though maybe indirectly, the role of the pastoral preacher is that he should speak from the Bible about his congregation and their situation, such notion expanded to as broad a canvas as you may be presented with, even a tsunami.

#4 of 43 top
Melinda Seed    7 months ago
Thanks for this Robert, the "God is in control" mantra does seem to be offered up in SydAng (and possibly many other) circles without really thinking through the implications and theology of the statement, let alone the pastoral implications.

Sadly I've heard people in Anglcan churches in Sydney extend the theory of control by suggesting that it might not be helpful to attempt to alleviate others' suffering because you would be denying the sufferer the full benefit of whatever it was that God was teaching them.

#5 of 43 top
David McKay    7 months ago
Ironically published the day after Calvin's quincentenary. Does this mean that God is in control of some things that happen, but not all? But how can it be that he is in control of some things and not others?

#6 of 43 top
Nick Brennan    7 months ago
If God is "in control"...in your moment of suffering or tragedy, isn't that *more* of a problem than if he was a few steps removed? God's "control" seems to be quite meaningless, given the terrible thing happened anyway!

I believe that God is in control during my suffering and I actually take great comfort in that. If God is all-powerful and all-knowing then I can't see how anything can happen that is not under his control. How can anything happen that is outside the will of God? If he wills it, it happens! If God can avert or remove suffering but chooses not to, that is still being "in control" is it not?

I believe all suffering has a purpose, whether we are able to determine it or not. Isn't it a bit arrogant of us to observe suffering and assume that because we see no meaning in it that God has no purpose for it? On the flip side, it is naive of us if we think we can derive tangible reasons for all suffering, as though our feeble brains can understand the mind and ways of God.

I would contend, at least, that all suffering involving Christians has meaning and purpose, because of what results from suffering - Rom 5:3-4 "we rejoice in our sufferings...produces endurance...character...hope." 2 Cor 1:5 "share in Christ's sufferings...so...we share...in comfort too." 1 Pet 1:6-7 "you have been grieved by...trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith...may result in praise and glory and honor..."

#7 of 43 top
JeanPierre Henderson    7 months ago
Luke Stevens:
"...ascribing evil to God, just so long as there's some .. silver lining of "good" that comes from said evil. What kind of God is that?"

I'm trying to realize something important when I've watched debates in this. Something the anti-Christian or anti-theist side forgets is that their opponents function from a point of presumption crucial to their arguments. This integral presumption relies essentially on a faith; thus it can't really be argued with. If we are talking about the source of the Universe, 1. we are not only talking about a cause that is all loving (meaning desiring the best in every possible way for that which is created) but that this benevolent cause is also omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. The ramifications of these words in one presumption can nicely rest arguments against any bit of evidence you can find to try and destroy that faith. The words cover the bases. Yet, how can this be? (I mean how could reason, contradicting what is assumed to be true not win out on the side of truth??) It is because your side has a deepest presumption also which relies just as much on faith.
As one side believes that the heart of the universe is love, that there is objectively reason to have infinite hope no matter what (i.e. Death has already been conquered) the other side still requires faith to believe otherwise.

"Atheists may have the world's pain as evidence against God, yet they have to ignore the evidence of everything else."

#8 of 43 top
Mark Earngey    7 months ago
Interesting post! I think Bishop Rob is onto a good pastoral thing here. I'm not sure if he's raising the actual theological question of whether God is actually in control of all...? That said, all too often, we jump to that facet of our theology (albeit a correct one!) to quickly treat a human problem that might need another comment...

This last paragraph of Rob's is great:
"So I am not sure whether “God is in control” is quite the way I want to put it any more. I don’t want to or cannot deny that God is God and that in a real sense nothing happens outside of God’s oversight. Or that he can and does providentially bring good out of evil. And yet I think I should abandon any kind of simple or unitary calling whatever happens “God’s will.” Announce the gospel instead."

Although I'd probably still be happy bringing the Christian truth that God is in control into appropriate situations and contexts. There is a pastoral place for that too (E.g., Joseph, Gen 50:20!).

Regardless, we should probably note that Bentley-Hart's theology is not a Calvinistic one. He's a brilliant Eastern Orthodox guy who writes really interesting stuff, but the "Greater-Good" defense of Evil (which is the one we should be holding to as good Calvinists) may not be in his theological toolbox... *just a thought - happy to be wrong!*

#9 of 43 top
Mary Elizabeth Fisher    7 months ago
Thank you Bishop Forsyth for the article quoting one of my favorite theologians David Bentley Hart.

May I also suggest examining what God's sovereignty MEANS (and the Old Testament is clear: the Creator Covenant God of Israel is sovereign) the late Trinitarian theologian Colin Gunton has wonderful suggestions. Ultimately the being of God as Trinity is foundational to Who the Creator Covenant God of Israel is as revealed in the first century Trinitarian Jesus of Nazareth event. And the sovereignty of the Creator Covenant God ultimately is "defined", in the "unveiling" Trinitarian Jesus of Nazareth event and the Eschatological outpouring of the Spirit.

This unveiling makes those who follow after Jesus so different from those who follow the prophet Mohamed in their understanding of the "control" or "sovereignty" of the the "one" they call Allah.

The Cappadocians have so much for us to re-considerl .

While many Old Testament scholars still are bound up in higher critical games, Craig Bartholomew (South African now in Canada via England and Walther Moberley (at Durham) are leading scholars attempting to promote a serious theological reading of the Old Testament from a Trinitarian perspective... Francis Watson - New Testament scholar (Kings, Aberdeen now Durham) has a great deal to offer. His Trinitarian read of Genesis One leads to worship.

#10 of 43 top
David Palmer    7 months ago
I really can't say I'm all that impressed by this sentance,

Simply said, there is no more liberating knowledge given us by the gospel — and none in which we should find more comfort — than the knowledge that suffering and death, considered in themselves, have no ultimate meaning at all.

The missing aspect that makes all the difference to our suffering and death is union with Christ. Suffering and death for the believer can never be "considered in themselves".

I am surprised that an Orthodox theologian could write as he has given Orthodoxy's attachment to divinisation (2 Peter 1:4).

PS for those wishing to know more about Orthodoxy I commend Robert Letham's sympathetic treament, Through Western Eyes: Eastern Orthodoxy A Reformed Perspective.

#11 of 43 top
Mary Elizabeth Fisher    7 months ago
As I read Hart's comment I don't read it quite the way you appear to David... He is - I would like to suggest - by the phrase "there is no more liberating knowledge given us by the gospel" - showing that it is in that unity with Christ through the Gospel that suffering and death have meaning and not "considered in themselves". I think this is emphasised by the phrase "none in which we should find more comfort".

#12 of 43 top
Bishop Robert Forsyth    7 months ago
David McKay has raised THE issue when he writes" Does this mean that God is in control of some things that happen, but not all? But how can it be that he is in control of some things and not others?". My answer is that depending on what you mean by "in control" then the answer is yes.

Otherwise what do you mean by praying "Your will be done on earth as in heaven" if it already is, always ans everywhere?

#13 of 43 top
Matt Busby Andrews    7 months ago
Hi Mary - good to see you in this discussion. Can you expand on this statement you made: "This unveiling makes those who follow after Jesus so different from those who follow the prophet Mohamed in their understanding of the "control" or "sovereignty" of the the "one" they call Allah."

How is the triune God sovereign in a way that the one they call Alla isn't?

Matt

#14 of 43 top
Dave Lankshear    7 months ago
As a dad whose 5 year old went through incredible pain with Leukaemia I agree with every point Luke makes! (Especially the Post-Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc reference to Christians reading “God’s will into their lives” in hindsight!) However, Hebrews 12 remains troubling for me.

If there is "general suffering" from living in "evil times" (eschatological tension), how are we to distinguish that from the "discipline of the Lord"? Maybe everything "bad" is the discipline of the Lord, in that at all times Christians must repent and trust Him anyway?

Hebrews 12
4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons:
"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."[a]

7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines

#15 of 43 top
David Palmer    7 months ago
Hi Mary,

We would have to ask him what he means. I like your reading but I'm not convinced that is the point Hart is making.

#16 of 43 top
Michael Canaris    7 months ago
He's a brilliant Eastern Orthodox guy who writes really interesting stuff, but the "Greater-Good" defense of Evil (which is the one we should be holding to as good Calvinists) may not be in his theological toolbox...

Mind you, though, I was of the impression Leibniz had rather more to do with the crystallisation of that 'defence'.

#17 of 43 top
Mary Elizabeth Fisher    7 months ago
Hi David Actually the reason I am persuaded it is a fair reading of what he means is because of his work focused by Gregory of Nyssa among others. I think that the critique of Western theology arguing the loss of a true Trinitarian emphasis in Western theology since Augustine as put forward by people such as Gunton and Robert Jensen among others has to be considered and reflected on.

In my opinion the Eastern orthodox have a much more co-inhering understanding of what it means to be "person" - both divine and human - because of their foundational "indwelling" of the development of the theological debates in the first 5 centuries particularly the work of the Capadocians. "Perichoresis" is the air they breathe and I don't think we evangelicals have begun to understand what it means for us as persons.
So to consider an Eastern Orthodox theologian - particularly Hart - who isn't to be read out of a profound Trinitarian understanding of perichoresis as it influences our understanding of "in Christ" theology just doesn't seem possible for me.

It is like hearing the phrase "four score and seven years ago" and thinking that an American is talking about something that happened 87 years ago rather than the Gettysburg address.

So I think knowing Hart's work and his tradition is vital in interpreting how his grammar relates to his heritage...

And I still could be wrong, but I think it worth considering.

#18 of 43 top
Mary Elizabeth Fisher    7 months ago
Matt
Bishop Forsyth's later says "Otherwise what do you mean by praying "Your will be done on earth as in heaven" if it already is, always and everywhere?"

Muslims believe everything occurring is God's will. Without exception "whatever Allah wills Allah wills" is deterministic & doesn't take into account human PERSONS made in the image of the ONE we know to be Triune.

But what do we mean to say human persons image God we know to be Trinity when the very language of "person" as we have it arose out of the Trinitarian debates climaxing with the Cappadocian 4

Christian reading of Scripture with emphases as the Lord's prayer, the eschatological inauguration of the Kingdom in the coming of Jesus and the eschatological outpouring of the Spirit (as well as the whole Old Testament covenantal revelations) causes me to believe other than Muslims believe.

So as a Christian how am I to understand the sovereignty of the Creator Covenant God of Israel. And I do believe in the sovereignty of the Creator! The issue is how does Scripture portray God's "working out" or "manifesting" God's sovereign rule. Because in the process of revelation the one who is the Triune Lord of Creation in self-revelation also is unveiling how the Creator institues and re-establishes the Triune God's sovereign rule.

So the Trinitarian unveiling with its revelation of what it means to be person - divine and human is central to defining sovereignty. This is so often missed.

#19 of 43 top
Roland Cartwright    7 months ago
Shortly after the Boxing Day Tsunami I went to an evening talk that was a response to this event at an Anglican Church in Sydney’s South. The speaker’s position was that not that the Tsunami was a tragedy that God as an omnipotent being could have prevented but rather that it was a event that God as sovereign of the universe had willed and purposefully brought into being. The destruction of over 200,000 lives by God through the Tsunami was not unjust as those killed, being lost in sin in any case, had no claim on God and therefore God had the right to take their lives at will. He went on to say that our faith should not be challenged by such events but rather we should be grateful that God's wrath is not manifest in nature more frequently and with more deadly effect. His God was certainly in control and I think he wanted to give comfort (at least to those who regarded themselves as safe from God’s wrath) but I heard only an extremely insensitive presentation and a response that I could not affirm in any way. In contrast Hart’s approach seems not only more compassionate but one that does not characterise God as the author and instigator of evil.

#20 of 43 top
David McKay    7 months ago
After the Glenbrook train disaster [in which of course a much smaller number of people were killed and some injured], I heard a minister say that God had nothing to do with it; it was purely human error.

But doesn't this turn us into Deists, with God having wound up the world, and leaving it to wind down? Contrast this with Hebrews 1, where Jesus is intimately involved in sustaining the world.

About the same time I read a book called Precious To God. It is a great book and well worth reading. A woman tells the story of giving birth to two seriously impaired children and all the struggles she had in caring for them, and also in thinking through her situation.

She came to the conclusion also that God had nothing to do with it. But she kept her faith in God and finishes her book by telling you that she gave birth a perfectly normal baby third time round.

But it doesn't comfort me to think that terrible human suffering is out of God's control and it doesn't seem to square with Scripture, which asserts over and over that nothing is outside God's control.

What gives me comfort is that a loving God is in control of our world. Nothing happens to God's people without his permission, and he brings good out of evil. John Piper points out that it is more than this though, because Hebrews 12 and many other Scriptures tell us that it is God behind everything that happen to us.

#21 of 43 top
David Palmer    7 months ago
Hi Roland and David,

Your posts caused me to go back to my weekly pastoral letter for the Sunday following the Tsunami and I found that I had copied something John Piper had written and thoroughly approved of. Here it is.

My own reaction to a natural disaster is twofold: a) metaphorically, to shake my fist at Satan and b) to remind myself of Roms 8;18-25 as the basis of explanation of what is going on as well as that which gives an intensification of the longing for the return of our Lord Jesus Christ when He will put all wrongs to right.

#22 of 43 top
Allan Patterson    7 months ago
We need to accept that we don't have the answers. God's thoughts are not our thoughts. Deut 29:29 tells us that some things only the Lord knows, but we are to be obedient. It's like understanding the Trinity. We can speculate, but we will never understand this side of glory. Lam 3:38 tells us that both good and evil take place at God's command. How do we understand that? Only to say He is in control!

#23 of 43 top
Luke Stevens    7 months ago
But it doesn't comfort me to think that terrible human suffering is out of God's control and it doesn't seem to square with Scripture, which asserts over and over that nothing is outside God's control.


I think the definition of "control" is important here, and the source of much confusion. Eg, is it "control" in the sense of an absolute monarch in "control" of his/her state, without orchestrating every little thing, or is it "control" in the sense of a puppeteer, pulling the strings of every movement of every person and every atom? Two very different definitions for the same word.

In any case, I don't understand the comfort argument. If God is "in control" (whatever that means), bad stuff still happens, which makes his "control" quite meaningless. All kinds of horror and suffering are inflicted on people (usually by other people) all over the world, every moment of every day.

The idea of God being "in control" would, to me, suggest protection from these things. However in this world there is no protection. Especially if you live in say, the Congo.

Sin exists, and the world is fallen after all.

In our society we live under the illusion of control *we* create to make the world seem a little less chaotic and nasty, but this is an aberration of our own creation.

Sometimes I wonder if we're just scared of an 'out of control' world and find the idea unpalatable.

But take a look around - what do you see?

#24 of 43 top
Grant Hayes    7 months ago
Perhaps God is a battler.

#25 of 43 top
Nick Brennan    7 months ago
The idea of God being "in control" would, to me, suggest protection from these things. However in this world there is no protection.

I don't think control logically leads to protection. Control means having more power than the thing that is happening. The question is - is God all-powerful? The answer is surely yes. And even if we agree that evil does not come from God, nevertheless God's omnipotence means that where evil occurs it does no only because God allows it to happen. Anything less than that strips God of his power in a way I would find alarming.

Revelation 12:7-17 tells us how Satan was defeated and kicked out of heaven. v12 "But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!" Romans 1:18-32 tells how God has given man over to his sin. Has God lost control of Satan or man? I don't think so, yet he allows them to "do their thing" and that's what we see happening in the world.

However, the "mechanics" of how exactly it works or how God thinks and acts is beyond me, a mere human! I just rejoice that our sufferings are incomparable to future glory (Rom 8:18) and that nothing can separate us from God's love (Rom 8:38-39). God may or may not deliver me from suffering but he will deliver me from his wrath!

#26 of 43 top
David McKay    7 months ago
Luke, I am sensing that saying God is in control is a bit like a red rag for a bull, for you.

I'm wondering if the problem is partly the terminology.

You posed this question:
is it "control" in the sense of an absolute monarch in "control" of his/her state, without orchestrating every little thing, or is it "control" in the sense of a puppeteer, pulling the strings of every movement of every person and every atom?


I don't think either are correct. The first one sounds pretty loose and not in accord with the comprehensive way God says he is in charge [is that better?] in the bible.

I don't like the puppeteer terminology in the second one.

You also said
Take a look around - what do you see?


But the Bible tells us things are not how they appear. It tells us that what appeared to be God's greatest defeat [the death of his Son] was his greatest triumph. It tells us to look with the eyes of faith, trusting that God is in charge and that things have happened as he said they would and will continue to their appointed goal, as he said they would.

#27 of 43 top
Grant Hayes    6 months, 4 weeks ago
Perhaps God is not so much a top-down controller as an irrepressible upstart.

#28 of 43 top
Luke Stevens    6 months, 4 weeks ago
@Nick, "The question is - is God all-powerful?" imo, that's not the question :) That's what often happens with this topic, it becomes about God's sovereignty or omnipotence on an abstract, theoretical level.

However, Bp Forsyth framed the issue with this:
Whenever something really terrible happens, either personally or in life, Christians often console each other and explain it by saying, “God is in control”.


I don't understand how this makes sense, as I outlined above. I don't think it's a question of God being all powerful or not, but more what comfort is unexercised power?

@David, Well, I just think it's not a very good idea :)

But the Bible tells us things are not how they appear


in my opinion it tells us things are as, or perhaps worse than, they appear. Sin is real, the world is fallen, as I mentioned.

What I don't understand is attempts to claim that God being 'in control' is the biblical point - how come we have gotten so far away from the reality and (often) unrelenting horror of the sinful world we inhabit?

That God is "in control" in the sense that this world will eventually be transformed & there is hope beyond death is good, obviously (!), but it doesn't change anything here and now, really. People still suffer and the world is still a brutal, unforgiving place (our modern society being somewhat of an illusionary abberation).

Saying "God is in control" in response is, to me, meaningless.

#29 of 43 top
JeanPierre Henderson    6 months, 4 weeks ago
Luke Stevens :
"People still suffer and the world is still a brutal, unforgiving place (our modern society being somewhat of an illusionary abberation).

Saying "God is in control" in response is, to me, meaningless."


Perhaps why I would think that believing 'God is in control' holds meaning, in spite of all the pain, may be illustrated like this. If my dad spanked me, this was different than when my step-dad hit me. I believed that the motive of one was rooted in love, and the other was not. The meaning was there for me in the first, even though the actual pain may have been similar to identical in both. One built me as a person, whilst the other cowed me down. Believing that there is a motive of love at the deepest heart of all things, no matter what, may be similar.

Here is a favourite quote (from George Macdonald) which this reminds me of:

"Nor do we know how much of the pleasures even of life we owe to the intermingled sorrows. Joy cannot unfold the deepest truths, although deepest truth must be deepest joy. Cometh white-robed Sorrow, stopping and wan, and flingth wide the doors she may not enter. Almost we linger with Sorrow for very love."

#30 of 43 top
Grant Hayes    6 months, 4 weeks ago
God once exerted himself to form a world. He made something good out of chaos, which was genuinely resistant.

What made God sweat in the beginning also made him sweat on the cross. His struggle was real, and remains real. He is imperilled, wounded, and extinguished. But he just keeps coming back ... a still, small voice; Wisdom's cry; the grain of light that confounds the vast darkness; the wind that blows where nobody knows.

#31 of 43 top
Chris Albany    6 months, 4 weeks ago
Rob in his original post said "Hart is strongly critical... who say that what God permits to happen he wills to happen." this reminded me of the following staement by W H Vanstone which I have found most helpful when thinking about this subject, "The God who will not abandon and to whom nothing is expendable is often misinterpreted in popular devotion as the God of fore-ordained and programmed purposes. It is assumed that for that to which God gives purpose God already has purpose and that of that which God uses, God has pre-determined the use. To make this assumption is to reduce the activity of God to a kind of production - a mere drawing out or display of that which already is. If the purpose of God in creation is foreknown and fore-ordained to fulfilment then the creation itself is vanity. It is merely the unwinding and display of a film already made. On the other hand to interpret the creation as the work of love is to interpret it as the new. As the coming to be of the hitherto unknown and so as that for which there can be no precedent, no programme. If creation is the work of love, its security lies not in its conformity to some predetermined plan but in the unsparing love which will not abandon a single fragment of it. And our assurance must be the assurance not that all that happens is predetermined by God's plan but that all that happens is encompassed by God's love." “Love’s Endeavour Love’s Expense" Dartman, Longman and Todd 1977 p 66,7

#32 of 43 top
JeanPierre Henderson    6 months, 4 weeks ago
Chris Albany:
"If the purpose of God in creation is
foreknown and fore-ordained to fulfilment then the creation itself is
vanity. It is merely the unwinding and display of a film already made. On
the other hand to interpret the creation as the work of love is to
interpret it as the new. "

This is wonderful, and comes to me like an interpretation of Grant's deeply beautiful, poetic thoughts just before your post.

I'm writing because I was reminded of another thought of George Macdonald's that relates to this. He reminded that Jesus (God) had, admittedly, not planned to perform his first miracle (turning the water to wine) when He did. It was his mother's request that caused this change of (eternal!) mind. Than GM went on to explore the significance of this. From memory I think it was in defense of the worthiness of prayer, yet I just love this thought you've shared about love always needing to be new! (For how can there be newness from an eternal perspective?!) Is love a paradox even to Love Himself?

I do agree with Solomon that there is nothing new under the sun; except love. Yet maybe this was the deeper point for his/these scripture?

#33 of 43 top
Luke Stevens    6 months, 4 weeks ago
Hi JeanPierre,

I can see you're thinking along the lines of Hebrews 12. However I think this strays towards the glamorization of suffering and the minimization of the fallenness of the world we live in, which is the crux of my problem with this issue.

It's nice to believe that there's a silver lining to all suffering, but plainly that's often not the case. People die all the same - parents, children, relatives. It's absurd to argue that these tragic deaths are somehow a good thing. Jesus defeated death for a reason after all.

And sometimes they don't die - for example people live out their lifetimes with terrible mental illnesses that cause massive, prolonged and unrelenting distress to family and loved ones.

It's hard to compare that to the gentle smack of a father discipline a child.

And I find it hard to believe that God is not in control there, but is if we stub our toe.

We long for a world without sin, suffering as death as Christians precisely because these things *are* so horrible here and now.

Our stance towards God's "control" in the here and now can only be, at best, agnostic (in that it's unknowable).

As far as I can see, it's irrelevant. An abstract idea is cold comfort for those suffering here and now.

Rather than pat answers of "God is in control", we'd be much better off to just be there with them in their dark times.

#34 of 43 top
JeanPierre Henderson    6 months, 4 weeks ago
Hi Luke, thanks for your response. I will try to respond to one point here which I may disagree with in it missed an angle of my thought:
"As far as I can see, it's (...believing in God's control in spite of suffering...) irrelevant. An abstract idea is cold comfort for those suffering here and now."

I hate to bring this up, but consider, for an analogy, the proven affect of a placebo med in this discussion. If one believes that there is ultimately a motive of love behind one's pain, than this pain may become more bearable even if the belief is false. (I'm not saying this is the crux of my argument, but rather a reminder worth appreciating, I think.)
On the other hand, if this belief is not actually a placebo but a genuine med, in the sense that because it is actually true believing in it will initiate benefit ('believe and you shall be saved'., via 'faith alone', etc.) than isn't this a win win?
Anyway, I feel almost dirty arguing these things in light of the reality of horrors you are referencing. In the Congo, I've read that some 5 million people have died in about 5 years, and most of these by ways such as machete (not bombs) or equivalent to 140 people an hour, every hour non-stop, for 5 years. It is hell on earth.
How could I argue for love amidst such evil? Yet, scripturally, He too was humiliated, tortured and murdered in this world. The heart of all life chose to suffer & die, for love. What more can He, personally do? He says it was enough; is it?

#35 of 43 top
Nick Brennan    6 months, 4 weeks ago
Luke,
That's what often happens with this topic, it becomes about God's sovereignty or omnipotence on an abstract, theoretical level.

Our stance towards God's "control" in the here and now can only be, at best, agnostic (in that it's unknowable). As far as I can see, it's irrelevant. An abstract idea is cold comfort for those suffering here and now.

I couldn't help noticing that in all this discussion we have not even mentioned the book of Job. Have we all subconsciously considered it too cliche for a discussion on suffering? ;-)

Job's response to losing everything, which he saw not as God's "unexercised power" but as the direct work of God, was "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord" and "Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?" The sovereignty of God is not cold comfort to Job, his first response is to fall down and worship.

Rather than pat answers of "God is in control", we'd be much better off to just be there with them in their dark times.

Quoting John Piper:
Job knows nothing of a flippant, insensitive, superficial "Praise God anyhow" response to suffering. The magnificence of his worship is because it was in grief, not because it replaced grief. Let your tears flow freely when your calamity comes. And let the rest of us weep with those who weep.

#36 of 43 top
David Palmer    6 months, 4 weeks ago
Chris,

I am very unconfortable with putting limits around God as I suggest the quote from Vanstone does. And it doesn't help to set up straw men in order to knock them down.

#37 of 43 top
Vaughan Smith    6 months, 3 weeks ago
Allan Patterson nails it in comment #23.

It isn't the Christian's job to try to reconcile what we see now with God's sovereignty. Bp Rob has made the same mistake as the Arminians and the Hyper-Calvinists - trying to vindicate God over the evil he sees in the world.

But the Biblical record clearly shows us that it is God who vindicates Himself. God isn't in the dock, remember? Christians have to live with God's sovereign control over all things and with the presence of evil in the world. Until that final day, we must content ourselves in our suffering, knowing that it does have a purpose (James 1:2-3; Heb 12:5-11; Rom 5:3-5, 8:28-33).

#38 of 43 top
Dave Lankshear    6 months, 3 weeks ago
You know what? This is probably not the place to talk about it.

#39 of 43 top
Vaughan Smith    6 months, 3 weeks ago
Probably. But Dave, my point wasn't that we should say "This is what God is doing in this situation..." We should instead call evil evil, and know that God has planned somehow to be vindicated in His use of it for His own ends.

#40 of 43 top
Dave Lankshear    6 months, 3 weeks ago
Sorry, I wasn't saying you were off topic.

I was saying I was!

I wrote something and then edited it to try to say that an internet forum was probably not the place to discuss what I had originally brought up, before deleting it. Sorry for any confusion.

#41 of 43 top
Dianne Howard    6 months, 3 weeks ago
Dave
I sent an email
Di

#42 of 43 top
Dave Lankshear    6 months, 3 weeks ago
Cheers Di.

#43 of 43 top
Commenting is no longer available on this article.