[quote author="Craig Bennett"]Do we plead with God for the healing of those we know, do we cry out to God for the salvation of the lost and broken in our community with that same determination and doggedness - I am afraid to say that in general we do not.

I don’t see this as that much of a problem, because people are saved far more than they are ‘healed’ (praise God!). If people were ‘healed’ (the term itself in this context is loaded with so many unbiblical ideas) with any meaningful regularity, it would be (a) obvious (b) measurable and (c) repeatable, but imo it is none of these things, and thankfully I don’t believe scripture contradicts this reality.

G’day Luke,

I don’t see this as that much of a problem, because people are saved far more than they are ‘healed’ (praise God!). If people were ‘healed’ (the term itself in this context is loaded with so many unbiblical ideas) with any meaningful regularity, it would be (a) obvious (b) measurable and (c) repeatable, but imo it is none of these things, and thankfully I don’t believe scripture contradicts this reality.

What is unbiblical about healing?? may I ask??

Now in some circles and churches they never see a healing or a miracle - nor do they expect it either, however in many places accross the world, including Australia healings and miracles do happen and are expected.

I know one man personally who became a christian because God regrew in his daughters ear a missing piece of the ear drum, ealier this year at parliament house we prayed for a politician, “John Forrest” who had a bad hand and at that meeting God healed him, I have seen before my own eyes miracles happen, My own wife was saved from death from preclampsia when she was pregnant, the specialist said,

“Mrs Bennett we don’t know whats happening, your blood count is going down, that NEVER happens”

Gordon linked a spot last night about a interview with a couple whose baby God healed - praise God.

I think the level of seeing God move in healings etc depends a lot on how expectant we are to see him do so,

James says, - Jam 5:15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well -

Now either James is a liar or he is not.

craig

[quote author="Craig Bennett"]

James says, - Jam 5:15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well -

Now either James is a liar or he is not.

craig

Hi again Craig,
I agree we have every privilege to cry out to God for healing.

Yet in reference to the above verse. The verse can equally, and likely even better be translated, “And the prayer offered in faith will save the sick person and the Lord will raise him and his sins will be forgiven.”

James is certainly not a liar.

G’day Rick,

Yet in reference to the above verse. The verse can equally, and likely even better be translated, “And the prayer offered in faith will save the sick person and the Lord will raise him and his sins will be forgiven.”

I’m not sure in the whole context that you can translate that scripture to that meaning, the NASB says,

Jam 5:13 Is anyone among you suffering?  Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises.
Jam 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
Jam 5:15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.

Also notice the onus on the individual to call the elders to come and pray for them - I know of many churches where this is praticed and God does answer those prayers.

I also know of many that don’t and so they don’t see God answer those prayers “Why” because to begin with the prayers are not asked. And they do need to be asked in faith, believing that God both hears and will answer that prayer with a yes.

craig

Hi again Craig,
I think the translation makes perfect sense in the context.

The word ‘sick’ in verse 14. This word is; ‘is weak’, so may better be translated ‘Is anyone among you weak?’ I’ve always then understood the anointing with oil from its OT usage like anointing the kings, sort of like a setting appart for faithful service; a rededication.

G’day Rick,

Can you give me a rundown then on what you think this verse is actually saying?

Also I know that I have asked this question many times but no one seems willing to engage it,

Jesus himself says so many times about the principle of praying in that there are 3 steps, with an extra 4th note to it.

1. Ask.
2. Believe that you will recieve - (in Mark Jesus says believe you have recieved it before you recieve it)
3. Then recieve it

That we must absolutly believe we are going to recieve what we have asked for.

If these are the principles that Jesus laid down for us to pray, why would they be no different for praying for someone who is sick, or for us praying for ourselves if we are sick?

craig

[quote author="Craig Bennett"]G’day Rick,

Can you give me a rundown then on what you think this verse is actually saying?

craig

Hi Craig,
On short notice this would be run down of what the verse is saying.

Is any one of you faltering in his faith? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and, in the act of anointing with oil, set him apart to Christian renewal. And prayer offered in faith will rescue the weary Christian; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so you may be restored to the faith.

On the question you ask at the end of your last post. I wouldn’t disagree with anything Jesus said. There is the matter though of ‘when’ we will recieve the healing we ask for which seems to be at the heart of expectations.

Craig,

What do you make of 2 Timothy 4:20?

20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus.

Did Paul lack faith in this regard? Or did Trophimus?

Yours in Christ,
Mark

G’day Rick,

I’m not sure that I would agree with that translation, non of the Bible translations I have suggest that.  I wonder if some of our other Bible scholars could put there two bobs in.

On the question you ask at the end of your last post. I wouldn’t disagree with anything Jesus said. There is the matter though of ‘when’ we will recieve the healing we ask for which seems to be at the heart of expectations.

OK then, if I ask for forgiveness of my sins, when should I expect God to forgive me??

Jesus said to be specific when we ask, Why can’t we be expectant to be healed when we ask to be, sure there were a couple of cases in the NT where some individuals had to go and do something before they were healed, such as the blind man who had to wash his eyes out, the 10 lepers who were walking away and discovered there healing - but I don’t read any occasion where Jesus said,

“Wait until you reach heaven to be to be healed “

The one case where he did refuse to go to heal someone was lasaurus, when he raised him from the dead, but God was glorified more so in that, than if he had of been just healed.

Now in the context of that scripture some may try and argue that the priciple is that when we are raised to life eternally we will glorify God more - but I think some long bows have been made to force that arguement using that text.

craig

Gordon wrote…

(Does Jesus) have an earthly body now?

If the answer is no, you deny that Jesus was riased physically and wholly from death.

The answer is yes - Jesus is still fully human, fully divine.

[quote author="Craig Bennett"]

I’m not sure that I would agree with that translation, ...
craig

Sorry Criag,

Just to clarify. I didn’t say that this was my ‘translation’. You asked for a run down of what I thought the verse was saying. My response was more an interpretation.

G’day Mark

Craig,

What do you make of 2 Timothy 4:20?

20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus.

Did Paul lack faith in this regard? Or did Trophimus?

Yours in Christ,
Mark

Was Trophimus healed at Miletus, we don’t know?? Perhaps Paul or Trophimus did lack faith, they after all were mere men, all the Apostles had made mistakes before!

But do we know any thing about the ministry at Miletus after wards?

What I am argueing about here Mark is that there seems to be a prevalence of thought throughout this dioscee that when we ask For God to heal us we don’t really expect him to do so, actually it goes deeper, its that we don’t seem to expect God to truly answer our prayers full stop.

Now we can pay lip service and say no way, but the proof is in the pudding when it comes to prayer meetings, when it comes to the amount of time we actually spend in prayer as against doing other stuff.

Such as the number of people who go to the regional prayer meetings that are held once a year in regions, such as the amount of time spent in praying at synod, such as the amount of time spent praying during our church services etc etc.

craig

[quote author="Craig Bennett"]

... all the Apostles had made mistakes before!

craig

Hi Craig, Going way off onto your comment on another thread. Could this have included choosing a 12th aposlte by lot?

;-0

G’day Rick,

Perhaps they did, perhaps they did.

I was thinking more so of Paul making a vow and shaving his head, and the whole issue of making vows instead of letting your yes be yes, Peters hypocrisy, the fact that God had to scatter the church at Jerusalem for them to get out into the rest of the world etc etc.

craig

[quote author="Mark Tough"]Craig,

What do you make of 2 Timothy 4:20?

20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus.

Did Paul lack faith in this regard? Or did Trophimus?

Yours in Christ,
Mark

this is a good question, Toughimus.

A similar question might be asked concerning Epaphroditus in Philippians 2. He gets better, but there is no hint at all that Paul thought this was a dead cert. In fact P acknowledges the real possibility that E mighta died.

[Mike,

I don’t deny that Jesus has a human body now. I do deny that he has an earthly body, see 1 Cor 15:35-58]