G’day All,

I just want to add to what Gordon said by describing my own experience.

I’m 33, and earlier in the year after a knee operation I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis by my surgeon (although my rheumatologist will only go as far as saying a severe inflammatory arthritis at this stage). As you can imagine I wasn’t particularly thrilled with the diagnosis.

The day after my operation, whilst in great pain and with great doubts in my mind about what the future held in terms of full time ministry, I decided to have a quiet time. For my quiet times I work systematically through the Bible in accordance with the system in Don Carson’s “For the love of God”. One of the 4 passages I read on that particular day was 2 Corinthians 12. When I got to verse 9 I read these words:

9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”

God spoke very powerfully to me through these words that day. It was as if he was saying “don’t worry about your future ministry Mark, it’s through weakness that my power is revealed.” These words helped me greatly to find contentment in my situation. Indeed they have been shown to be very true in the months since.

About 3 or 4 weeks later this contentment was challenged greatly. A lady at church (who is no longer at our church) told me that I was healed. All I had to do was to accept it by faith. These words challenged greatly the contentment that I had found in my situation.

In the end, after much prayer and reflection, I concluded that it actually took more faith to be content with my situation than it did to accept healing. I concluded that Paul himself had great faith in 2 Corinthians 12 but the answer given was no. I concluded that this was most probably an attempt by the evil one to make me desire that my power be revealed rather than God’s power through my weakness.

In saying all this I have no doubts that God can heal me, but I also have no doubts that it’s much better for me to be a weak vessel through whom God’s power shines, than to be a strong vessel who is tempted to not be totally dependent upon their gracious maker.

I too have struggled with depression and it is another situation where God has shown me again and again how his power is revealed through my weakness.

Yours in Christ,
Mark

[quote author="Sheldon Ryan"]Is that the same as spirtual connections?

Hi Sheldon,
I’m sorry that I didn’t respond earlier. I didn’t understand what you meant in the above quote. I was hoping that a little more time for me would make it clearer, but alas, no. I still don’t understand. Please enlighten me?

Cheers,
Andrew

Hi Andrew,

Enkidu wrote:

Those who insist that Christians should always be healed (or else it reflects their lack of faith) have, I believe, failed to comprehend this fundamental biblical truth: we have not arrived at our destination yet.

Does Romans 8:22-25 support the fundamental truth you mentioned?

We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?  But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

It concerns me that some Christians genuinely believe that having enough faith or the ‘right kind of faith’, and being prayerful will somehow bring about healing here and now. If this is true then they will never die as they will be rewarded with perpetual healing. I’m not being trite or rude, I’m just trying work through their theology and reasoning to its logical conclusion. It simply doesn’t fit with the above Romans passage or with much of what the bible says about this life and the next.

Andrew, as you know I too am a fellow sufferer so it is a privilege and a blessing to know (here and now) that our sufferings are not for nought. God uses our sufferings in the most wonderful way as Paul in 2 Cor writes:

2Cor. 1:3-14 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God.

Most of my Christian brothers and sisters who suffer depression have not been completely healed. God in His mercy has provided a variety of help: medication, counselling, the love and support from fellow suffers, and above all His own Spirit and Son who sympathises with our sufferings.

It is the company and fellowship of those Christians who have suffered, either for their faith or because of other hardships, which is the most rewarding and an encouragement to persevere in my trust and love of God whether I am healed or not.

cheers
Angela

Healing

A few months ago I came across a group of Christians whose goal for the evening was to “heal” my physical disability. I explained to them that God could possibly do this and I would be grateful, but far more important is spiritual healing from our sin. They accused me of not having sufficient faith. My response was that I have forgiveness in Christ and that’s all I need. The way I walk is very much a secondary issue.
Having said that I wonder if we aren’t guilty of limiting God’s power to the afterlife when we dismiss this kind of thing.
Probably more disturbing was several years ago my mum while in hospital for a back injury was told by a chaplain that if she had enough faith she would be healed.

G’day Wayne.

I think we need to have faith firstly to be able to approach God with confidence to ask him for any thing, whether it be forgiveness, healing or praovision. If we don’t then there is something wrong with our faith through our faulty knowledge of God in not being able to approach him with confidence.

But this confidence is exactly the same confidence we have when we approah him to forgive us

I also think that often we do not understand the difference between saving faith and faith for miracles as mentioned in corinthians - there is a major difference between the two.

craig

[quote author="Craig Bennett"]
I also think that often we do not understand the difference between saving faith and faith for miracles as mentioned in corinthians - there is a major difference between the two.

craig

Hey Craig

Can you fill us in on what you mean by that?

G’day Gordon,

Craig Bennett wrote:

I also think that often we do not understand the difference between saving faith and faith for miracles as mentioned in corinthians - there is a major difference between the two.

craig

Hey Craig

Can you fill us in on what you mean by that?

1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,

1Co 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

These scriptures point out that there is a gift of faith that is different to saving faith, again here we see this type of faith at work.

Act 3:16 By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see.

I hope this helps.

craig

G’day Gordon,

I was reflecting on the whole issue of having faith and not having faith and that we speak against the whole idea of having faith sort of thing for healing, but how do we do the scriptures justice when there are many that point to the individual having the faith to be healed?

Mat 9:27 As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed him, calling out, “Have mercy on us, Son of David!”
Mat 9:28 When he had gone indoors, the blind men came to him, and he asked them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?”
“Yes, Lord,” they replied.
Mat 9:29 Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith will it be done to you”;

Mat 9:22 Jesus turned and saw her. “Take heart, daughter,” he said, “your faith has healed you.” And the woman was healed from that moment

Mat 9:29 Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith will it be done to you”;

Mat 13:58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mat 17:20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."[1]

Mat 21:21 Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done.

Mar 10:52 “Go,” said Jesus, “your faith has healed you.” Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

Luk 17:6 He replied, “If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you.

Luk 17:19 Then he said to him, “Rise and go; your faith has made you well.”

Luk 18:42 Jesus said to him, “Receive your sight; your faith has healed you.”

I think you get my drift, only in a few places did Jesus pronounce forgiveness, in all these cases though the did say that it was the individual who had the faith to be healed.

craig

Hi Craig,

I am not at all sure that the faith for salvation/faith for healing distinction holds.

For example quite commonly in Luke, the Greek word often translated as “healed” is the “sozo” word, which could equally well be translated “saved” (rather than “therapeuo”, which normally translates as “healed”. This is because healing is one of the benefits of salvation - salvation in NT terms is never just bare rescue from a bad thing, but salvation into the many blessings of heaven.

Mind you, as I and others keep suggesting, many of those blessings we will have to wait until heaven before we experience them in full.

G’day Gordon,

a question for you

For example quite commonly in Luke, the Greek word often translated as “healed” is the “sozo” word, which could equally well be translated “saved” (rather than “therapeuo”, which normally translates as “healed”. This is because healing is one of the benefits of salvation - salvation in NT terms is never just bare rescue from a bad thing, but salvation into the many blessings of heaven.

Mind you, as I and others keep suggesting, many of those blessings we will have to wait until heaven before we experience them in full.

How do you relate healing to salvation in the case of the 10 lepers who Jesus healed and yet only one came back to worship Jesus?

I thought healing had to do more with Gods mercy and compassion for us. Can you relate to me any story in the NT where Jesus never healed or delivered someone from the conditions they asked him to?

Why do we think Jesus would be any different today?, is not Jesus the same yesterday, today and tommorrow?

craig

[quote author="Craig Bennett"]G’day Gordon,

a question for you

For example quite commonly in Luke, the Greek word often translated as “healed” is the “sozo” word, which could equally well be translated “saved” (rather than “therapeuo”, which normally translates as “healed”. This is because healing is one of the benefits of salvation - salvation in NT terms is never just bare rescue from a bad thing, but salvation into the many blessings of heaven.

How do you relate healing to salvation in the case of the 10 lepers who Jesus healed and yet only one came back to worship Jesus?

This one is a fascinating example, and I notice it appears on your list too. The Greek here is one instance of my point where the word “healed” ought to be translated as “saved”.

So the Samaritan dude returns from getting healed to thank Jesus, and Jesus says to him

Luke 17:9 “Your faith has (literally) saved you"(ie the word is “saved”, not “healed")

The Greek for saved ("sesoken") is in the perfect tense, that is to say, a past act with ongoing consequences.

So this man alone, out of the original group of ten, receives the declaration from Jesus that he is “saved” by his faith. In contrast to the others, who were merely healed. What is really significant here is that the healing fades into the background, the really significant thing that has gone is that the man has put his trust in Jesus and has gone from being one of the “lost” to being one of the “found”.

(Recall too that the lost sheep, the lost coin and the lost son are all spoken of in chapter 15, recall that the filthy rich in chapter 16 are sent down to Hades in torment, recall the grumbling of the Pharisees right through this section that Jesus is hanging out with “sinners”. The issue here is salvation from sin, even death (Luke 15:32))

I thought healing had to do more with Gods mercy and compassion for us. Can you relate to me any story in the NT where Jesus never healed or delivered someone from the conditions they asked him to?

Such a refusal is implicit in Mark 1.

Mark 1:36 And Simon and those who were with him searched for him,
Mark 1:37 and they found him and said to him, e“Everyone is looking for you.”
Mark 1:38 And he said to them, “Let us go on to the next towns, that I may preach there also, for fthat is why I came out.”

The only reason it’s not explicit is that Jesus actively avoided being asked directly by nipping out the back door, very early, like Mark Latham trying to avoid a bunch of angry Christian farmers.

The placement of this refusal in the gospel is significant too. It happens very early on in Jesus’ public ministry, just as his reputation is starting to spread. He wants to be known first and foremost as a preacher, not as a healer. See also Luke 4:16-20 where he announces his primary ministry is as a proclaimer.

Why do we think Jesus would be any different today?, is not Jesus the same yesterday, today and tommorrow?

craig

Yes, but what do you mean by this? Jesus had an earthly body then, does he have an earthly body now? Jesus slept then, even at the height of a storm that threatened the lives of his followers. Does Jesus sleep now at the height of the storms in our lives?

G’day Gordon,

Jesus indeed did nip out the back door so to speak, what did he do though, he raised up 12, then another 70 odd to go and do the work of the ministry, now he has a world wide church to do that work.

Now Jesus never refused to heal any one who asked him to do so, same as he never refuses to forgive any who ask him to forgive them.

Are you suggesting that Jesus nipps out the back door and refuses to hear our prayers, in the same way you say he did in the scriptures you quoted. If that is the case then how can we be sure using your analogy that Jesus hears our prayers for forgiveness without nipping out the back door??

craig

Paul. 2 Cor 12:8 and 9.

G’day Rick,

So out of something that God told Paul we are going to make a theology in that we don’t ask God and expect God to heal us.

Now I could understand that if we are like Paul and are caught up into the 3rd heaven not knowing whether in the body or out of it - on a few occasions - but for the majority of us we don’t have those heavenly experiences.

Now also the fact is that the context of the Scripture you are quoting is in regard to Pauls hardship and persecution, not a sickness, and also Paul did plead with God to take it away from him, and God told him no on this occasion, but did that stop Paul from pleading with God on many other occasions, I think not.

The facts of the matter is that far to often, to many Christians suffer with problems with out pleading, with out asking God to heal them, or to help them or to take it away from them. Yes Gods grace was sufficient for Pauls needs, Gods grace was also sufficient to heal the blind man, to heal the lady who had suffered for years with a bleeding problem, a man who had been lame, some lepers.

Now the religious establishment of the day would have preached to them that you just have to accept your lot from God, But when Jesus came into there presence they shouted, they made sure Jesus heard there requests, and on one occasion a lame man had 4 friends who dug through a roof and lowered him down for him to recieve healing -

Do we plead with God for the healing of those we know, do we cry out to God for the salvation of the lost and broken in our community with that same determination and doggedness - I am afraid to say that in general we do not.

craig

Hi Craig,
Sorry.

I just popped into the thread and read your question whether there was anyone in the NT who asked Jesus to heal them and were’nt healed? I just answered your question.

I wasn’t saying anything about a whole theology, I presumed that was what you and Gordon were trying to nut out.