Hi my wise friends

As a sufferer of chronic depression and a Christian, I’m often told that God will heal me of my depression (and migraines). I just need to believe that what the Bible says in Isaiah 53:4-6. I think that “they” are referring particularly to the end of verse 5 “and with his stripes we are healed”

My understanding of that passage has always been that it is not talking about healing of physical illnesses, but of the taking away of our sin. As I did a little further study recently, I read in verse 4 in The Amplified Bible that it expands griefs to include sicknesses, weaknesses and distresses

When I tried discussing this with another friend, I was told that I was prejudiced against people who interpret the Bible differently to the way that I do (Not quite sure where that one came from, but, oh well …) Maybe I’ll get the same reaction here.

So, what do others make of the Isaiah passage? Any insights?

Cheers,
Andrew
PS Did I do the links correctly?

G’day Andrew.

My understanding is that it covers sickness’s as well, there are many other scriptures to support asking God to heal us.

Such as when God reveals his name to the desert wander’s “I am the Lord who heals you”

Study the gospel accounts of the many times Jesus healed people.

Andrew how long have you suffered depression and migraines? Sometimes we need to pray into areas or cirmumstances of life that may be a root cause of our depression.

Such as our own or a family members invovlement with the occult, a traumatic circumstance such as a death or injury, even rejection from others at school.

I’m not saying these are what happened to you, but they can be a root cause of us suffering depression.

craig

Craig

Is that the same as spirtual connections?

Hi Andrew,

I’m sorry to hear about your chronic depression and migraines, I have a long personal experience with the former as have many people here, and understand how difficult it can be. I’m also sorry to hear it is often suggested to you that you need ‘more faith’ to overcome your ailments. I wonder what these people would make of the faith of Christians living in grinding poverty.

I think you’re original understanding of the passage is correct - and surely it is one of the most profound in the OT. I’m not sure what the Amplified Bible is or where its coming from, perhaps you or someone else could explain, but the rightness or wrongness of their expansion of the terms used could best be handled by some of our resident bible geeks, I’m sure ;)

As for your friend, its unfortunate he accused you of prejudice against those that read the bible differently - perhaps you should suggest he is prejudiced against critical thinking, but the point may be lost on him.

In any case, I personally find it disturbing that people come to some of the most profound words in the OT and cannot see beyond their own, often quite mild problems (relatively speaking - again, lets keep our brothers and sisters who live in very harsh conditions everyday in mind) and want to twist those words in to some sort of evidence that you can - no, should - work your way towards God’s healing, in spite of all the passages of hardship and suffering found in the bible, particularly the NT.

(FWIW, I also find it distressing that people condemn themselves to their own suffering through their perception of a limited number of bible passages and/or personal beliefs before thoroughly exploring lifestyle, dietary and medical options open to them that God may use to heal them.)

Andrew I would be very careful of being sucked into the “if you just believed enough...” trap of thinking, as it is a cruel misconception that ultimately sentences its believers into a cycle of guilt and self-focus, which makes it very hard to grasp the profound joy that, no matter what happens to us here, no matter how much pain and suffering we endure, “he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.”

Re: Healing

[quote author="Andrew Kroiter"]As a sufferer of chronic depression and a Christian, I’m often told that God will heal me of my depression (and migraines). I just need to believe that what the Bible says in Isaiah 53:4-6. I think that “they” are referring particularly to the end of verse 5 “and with his stripes we are healed”

Andrew, I think it is true to say that we will be healed of our illnesses. What the text does not say is when this will happen, and I think it is not biblical for anyone to insist that healing must occur now (i.e. this side of “heaven"). In fact, the NT guarantees that we will continue, in this life, to suffer and to die, but that through death shall come eternal life. Then there shall be no more sickness or death. Because this is all achieved through the suffering and affliction of God’s servant, the words of Isaiah are true.

Those who insist that Christians should always be healed (or else it reflects their lack of faith) have, I believe, failed to comprehend this fundamental biblical truth: we have not arrived at our destination yet.

G’day Enkidu

Those who insist that Christians should always be healed (or else it reflects their lack of faith) have, I believe, failed to comprehend this fundamental biblical truth: we have not arrived at our destination yet.

I agree with a lot of what you have said here, however there is also a Biblical / Scriptural merit for having faith to be healed as well. When you look at all the scriptures in the gospels of healing - Jesus often spoke about the persons faith healing them, also in the home town of Jesus - Jesus himself COULD NOT DO MUCH because of their lack of faith.

It is a sad fact that many Christians today will not ask God to heal them of their sicknesses believing that he will do so. Jesus says so many times to us through the Gospels, Ask, Believe, Recieve - there is always that requisite that we must believe when we ask to recieve.

This is the basis for all prayer though, not just in regards to healing.

craig

WOW! Where do I start?

First of all, I think, to Luke, to thank him for fixing up the mess that I made with the links. :)

Craig,

there are many other scriptures to support asking God to heal us.
Such as when God reveals his name to the desert wander’s “I am the Lord who heals you”
Study the gospel accounts of the many times Jesus healed people.

how long have you suffered depression and migraines?

Luke

I wonder what these people would make of the faith of Christians living in grinding poverty.

Luke, thanks for the encouragement and warnings.

Enkidu, that’s a good point, thanks :) Yes, we will be healed, but the Bible doesn’t promise any healing/deliverance before our arrival in heaven. Have I understood you correctly?

Chris, finally, yes, I agree with you that we must have faith. But having that faith doesn’t automatically guarantee the healing or deliverance, does it?

Cheers,
Andrew

[quote author="Craig Bennett"]I agree with a lot of what you have said here, however there is also a Biblical / Scriptural merit for having faith to be healed as well. When you look at all the scriptures in the gospels of healing - Jesus often spoke about the persons faith healing them, also in the home town of Jesus - Jesus himself COULD NOT DO MUCH because of their lack of faith.

It is a sad fact that many Christians today will not ask God to heal them of their sicknesses believing that he will do so. Jesus says so many times to us through the Gospels, Ask, Believe, Recieve - there is always that requisite that we must believe when we ask to recieve.

This is the basis for all prayer though, not just in regards to healing.

Working backwards, I would say the basis of all prayer is highlighted in words like Matt 7:9, moreso than Matt 7:8. Prayer is rooted in relationship. I think an awareness of this makes for a more balanced understanding of prayer than does an insistence that we can have anything we want, if only we have faith (although properly understood, if we have sufficient faith, what we want would be fashioned by our relationship with God, so we would not desire ungodly things or seek inappropriate things). Jesus says a father would not give his son a snake if he asked for a fish. In this context, however, it is worth pointing out that a good father would not give his son a snake just because he asked for one! The response to prayer is based on knowledge of what is best for the person making the request.

The same analysis can be applied to Paul’s (in)famous “thorn in the flesh.” He prayed three times for it to be removed but it was not. Was his faith insufficient? No, for he was asking for a snake! In retrospect he came to understand that this apparent imprediment to his work ultimately served a greater good: he came to learn that God’s grace was sufficient for him, and he was kept from becoming conceited.

Is healing always the fish, never the snake? I don’t believe it is ever possible to give universal “yes/no” answers to these questions. We may always think that healing is the best thing for us, but our perspective is limited. Sometimes suffering or sickness may ultimately work for our good, or the good of those around us, or both. Perhaps this even applies to death!

To go over old ground, the problem with the “not enough faith” argument is that it assumes that in Jesus’ day, before the coming of the Spirit, everyone had sufficient faith to be healed, whereas since that time few people seem to have sufficient faith.

In spite of this, I do encourage people to pray for healing. I do, however, discourage the conclusion that lack of healing equates with lack of faith.

[quote author="Andrew Kroiter"]Enkidu, that’s a good point, thanks :) Yes, we will be healed, but the Bible doesn’t promise any healing/deliverance before our arrival in heaven. Have I understood you correctly?

Yes, although instead of saying “the Bible doesn’t promise any healing/deliverance before our arrival in heaven” I would say that it doesn’t guarantee healing before the eschaton.

[quote author="Enkidu Jones"] eschaton.

What dictionary do I need for that one?

[quote author="Andrew Kroiter"][quote author="Enkidu Jones"] eschaton.

What dictionary do I need for that one?

Sorry for using strange terminology. This list may be useful. It says: “The return of Jesus.  From the Greek “eschatos” which means last.”

Just a different way of saying “before heaven” (given that the idea that we all spend eternity “in heaven” is not biblical).

G’day Enkidu and others,

I just want to clarify that I do not fall into the more faith camp. All we need to have is faith in Jesus and rest on him, not some kind of work our faith up and our faith is in our faith type of scenario.

I do agree that our basis for prayer does come out of relationship read here http://intercessionalive.bravehost.com/walkingwithgod.html an article I wrote on the very issue.

As our relationship with God grows we come to know his character and his nature more and more, we mature more in knowing what Christ has done for us and we become more confident in our knowing him and our position in him.

Having said that our asking God to heal us must be a believing prayer, the same as any other asking must be believing prayer, asking God with the assurance that he will give us what we ask for.

I have trouble with the thought though that some have, in that God does not want us to be healed or does not want to heal us and they go running of to a doctor to get healed or try other forms of lifestyle change.

If they were sure that God did not want to heal them, why are they doing those other things???

craig.

For what its worth,
I suspect that what is being healed in the passage from Is 53:4-6 is the wounding mentioned in Is 1:4-6 - the wounds from God’s judgement on Israel for their sin.

That’s a helpful thought, Mark. But it seems to include physical sickness (at least in Israel, & to some extent) judging by Mat 8:17.

[quote author="Mark Williamson"]For what its worth,
I suspect that what is being healed in the passage from Is 53:4-6 is the wounding mentioned in Is 1:4-6 - the wounds from God’s judgement on Israel for their sin.

Mark, its worth quite a lot. thanks.

Andrew

G’day Mark,

You could be onto something there using the historical context of the scriptures, though i would say the prophetic principle would have to be for us as well in Is 1:4-6.

Isa 1:4 Ah, sinful nation,
a people loaded with guilt,
a brood of evildoers,
children given to corruption!

I have heard these type of verses used freely to show we are sinful people in need of a savior

Isa 1:6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness-
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with oil.

This is the result of sin,

If the prophetic scriptures are so freely used to point to Jesus forgiving us our sins, why can we not use those same scriptures that talk of him healing us just as freely??

When is it that we are to expect forgiveness?

Is it when we ask our Father to do so?

Are we to expect it know as soon as we ask, or are we to only expect it sometime in the future when we face our Father in heaven?

craig?

[quote author="Craig Bennett"]
When is it that we are to expect forgiveness?

Is it when we ask our Father to do so?

Are we to expect it know as soon as we ask, or are we to only expect it sometime in the future when we face our Father in heaven?

We are to expect it when God says he will give it, and not before.

So if we are justified at the cross, that is the point at which we are forgiven.

But if you were trying to argue that this means healing now, that is not proven at all. You might as well believe that Christians no longer sin, on the same grounds (But see 1 Jn 1:8 for that one, or check your own experience).

As to your question about why a Christian might see a doctor today, well, most Christians I know will visit the doctor as a sincere expression of their faith in God. They believe that God can heal today, should he choose to do so, and they prayerfully seek the care of those whom God has gifted to help in medical matters.

Enkidu is correct to point to 2 Cor 12, the thorn in Paul’s flesh, as one instance where the answer was “no”. I can point to any number of examples where God has been glorified by the patient and persevering attitude of the person who suffers without having been healed, eg my wife, Peter Kirsop who has contributed to these forums elsewhere, also I believe Rodney Cosier who contributed on the “Charismatic theology” thread.

Andrew,

To say that God heals any who ask in faith, without exception, and does it when they ask, is to deny the experience of those who glorify God and continue to glorify God through their own sufferings. It also distorts the promises of Scripture and leaves sufferers (especially those who suffer depression, such as yourself) under an immense burden of misplaced guilt. That is just plain wrong, and those responsible for adding the burden should repent of their mistaken theology. It is another example where seemingly dry and dull theology ends up mattering a great deal for our understanding of God and life and experience.

Mind you, this shouldn’t stop you or anyone praying for healing. And God is certainly able to do it. If he doesn’t, we are ultimately led, like Job and Paul in 2 Cor 12, to believe that his reasons for not healing (or not healing just yet) are good, even if we can’t see those reasons.

My wife has found Romans 5:1-11 and Hebrews 12:1-13 of help in thinking about the issue. These passages and others don’t provide immediate relief, and sometimes the understanding there may seem to provide no consolation whatsoever (which I guess is part of the issue with depression). But long term, those passages and others express the hope and meaning that my wife clings to— she, and many others who trust God to bless them in the middle of their difficult experiences.

[edited for clarity]