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Doctrine Question
01 December 2004 10:38pm
943 posts
  [ Ignore ]

How can a good and sovereign God direct demons to achieve his purpose?

I’m seeking some views from you guys

Thanks.

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Pro13:12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but when dreams come true,there is life and joy.

Ecc4:9 Two are better than one......10 If one falls down,his friend can help him up.But pity the man who falls and has noone to help him up!

   
02 December 2004 12:32am
1 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]

God controlling demons??

Ray: How can a good and sovereign God direct demons to achieve his purpose?

First of all, what would happen if God did not cause, control and sustain ALL things?

Could God keep his promises??

Ray, I have a question for you: Does a person regenerated by the Holy Spirit immediately believe the gospel?

The gospel includes the truth that God is keeps his promises. Jn3:16 says that whosever believes in him [EVERYONE who believes] will not perish but have eternal life [God’s promise] Thus if demons or man had free will they could possibly thwart God! For instance man could reject the “offer” of the gospel, loss his salvation etc. Or maybe a demon could deceive one of the elect!

If so, do people who believe in free will believe the gospel?

Andy

   
02 December 2004 1:04am
61 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]

G’day Ray, God doe’snt so much “direct” Satan to commit evil ( God is holy and without sin ) as much as he allows Satan and his cohorts a certain amount of “freedom” to ultimatley achieve Gods puposes.

Ja 1:13 And remember, no one who wants to do wrong should ever say, “God is tempting me.” God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else either

.

For example in Job 1:9 God allows Satan to test Job but puts a limit on Satan,

9 Satan replied to the Lord, “Yes, Job fears God, but not without good reason! 10 You have always protected him and his home and his property from harm. You have made him prosperous in everything he does. Look how rich he is! 11 But take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!”
12 “All right, you may test him,” the Lord said to Satan. “Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don’t harm him physically.” So Satan left the Lord’s presence.

In Revelation when God lets loose the four angels ( Satans cohorts?) to kill upon the earth in his mercy he spares a part of the earth so as to allow survivors to come to repentance.

Rev 9:15 And the four angels who had been prepared for this hour and day and month and year were turned loose to kill one-third of all the people on earth.

   
02 December 2004 12:36pm
943 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]

Re: God controlling demons??

[quote author="Andrew Bain"]

Ray, I have a question for you: Does a person regenerated by the Holy Spirit immediately believe the gospel?

If so, do people who believe in free will believe the gospel?

Andy

Christianity require bind faith and repentence
The bible say we were chosen by God; not everyone has the holy spirit in their body.
Holy Spirit is the personal presence of God; Holy spirit help us to understand the nature of God and be able to speak his word. It also help us to judge what is rightousness while we live in the fall of humanity.

Ephesians 1:8-13

That he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good [leasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the timeswill have
reached their fulfillment to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
In him were also chosen having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformitywith the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. and you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.

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Pro13:12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but when dreams come true,there is life and joy.

Ecc4:9 Two are better than one......10 If one falls down,his friend can help him up.But pity the man who falls and has noone to help him up!

   
02 December 2004 12:42pm
943 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]

[quote author="kevin casey"]G’day Ray, God doe’snt so much “direct” Satan to commit evil ( God is holy and without sin ) as much as he allows Satan and his cohorts a certain amount of “freedom” to ultimatley achieve Gods puposes.

9 Satan replied to the Lord, “Yes, Job fears God, but not without good reason! 10 You have always protected him and his home and his property from harm. You have made him prosperous in everything he does. Look how rich he is! 11 But take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!”
12 “All right, you may test him,” the Lord said to Satan. “Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don’t harm him physically.” So Satan left the Lord’s presence.

So, why does God allow us to be tested by the evil? God wants to proof we are worthy enough to enter his kingdom? God want us to have a stronger faith and a persevance heart. Am I right??

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Pro13:12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but when dreams come true,there is life and joy.

Ecc4:9 Two are better than one......10 If one falls down,his friend can help him up.But pity the man who falls and has noone to help him up!

   
02 December 2004 6:53pm
61 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]

G’day,
Ray wrote,

So, why does God allow us to be tested by the evil? God wants to proof we are worthy enough to enter his kingdom? God want us to have a stronger faith and a persevance heart. Am I right??

Gods purpose is not for us to prove our worth to enter the kingdom, we could never achieve that purpose ( we will always be unworthy). But Christ has already paid the price for our entry i.e Christ has made us worthy.
Gods pupose in “tesing” is the same as my purpose in allowing my children to stand on there own two feet, to learn by their mistakes and hopefully to mature as people. The additional point to make is that by allowing Satan to test us God makes us aware of our own weaknesses ( we could never stand against Satan in our own strenght ) and ultimatley our reliance on him.
Regards Kevin

   
16 April 2005 12:24pm
1 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]

Hi guys,

Firstly - Ray you said “Christianity requires blind faith and repentance”.  I disagree, I don’t think faith is blind. Hebrews 11:1 says “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see”. Whilst we do not yet see/experience the product of our faith, our faith is certain - it is based on real evidence: the Bible.  In the Bible we know that God promises that “if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9) and we also know through our reading of the history of God’s people Israel that our God keeps his promises. In this there is no blindness.

Secondly, does God allow Satan to work in our lives?? I think looking at the book of Job is helpful here… in chapter 1 we see Satan approach God, and God allow Satan to work in Job’s life by destroying everything. It is clear in the first couple of chapters that God is sovereign, that he has ultimate control over everything, including what Satan does/doesn’t do.  Becuase God is in control, Satan can’t do anything that is not permitted by God.

Thirdly, WHY does God allow Satan to work in our lives? God’s response to Job when he asks that question is pretty clear: I am the almighty God, don’t question me. (you will have to read chapters 38-40 to understand this) WHY is the wrong question to ask, rather, it is all about KNOWING THE GOD WHO KNOWS WHY.

In the new testament there are various places that refer to why God might allow us to be tested:
- God disciplines his sons: Hebrews 12:4-5 (esp vs 8)
- Because in our weakness we display God’s strength: 2 Corinthians 12:7-10 (Paul talks about the thorn given to him by Satan, which God won’t take away - for God’s power is made perfect in weakness!)
- Perseverance and hope: Romans 5:3 (HOWEVER I should note that this passage talks about sufferings, and some people argue that ‘suffering’ can be distinguished from Satan’s work… however I disagree and think suffering comes from Satan, but that God is still in ultimate control of Satan - as I said earlier).
- Perseverance and maturity in the faith: James 1 (and this is talking about trials and temptations).
I’m sure there are plenty of other verses as well.

However, we don’t need to know WHY God does something to us, we only need to have confidence that God is sovereign, he is in control, and he does everything for the good of those who love him: Romans 8:28.

So not only is our faith based on something true and real and certain (and therefore not blind) but our faith enables us to have confidence that God is sovereign and does everything for our own good!

In Christ,
Jo.

   
17 April 2005 7:27am
5473 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]

How can a good and sovereign God direct demons to achieve his purpose?

Which specific passage did you have in mind Ray?

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18 April 2005 4:05am
943 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]

[quote author="Jo Gray"]Hi guys,

Firstly - Ray you said “Christianity requires blind faith and repentance”.  I disagree, I don’t think faith is blind. Hebrews 11:1 says “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see”. Whilst we do not yet see/experience the product of our faith, our faith is certain - it is based on real evidence: the Bible.  In the Bible we know that God promises that “if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9) and we also know through our reading of the history of God’s people Israel that our God keeps his promises. In this there is no blindness.
Jo.

What I mean blind faith is
I cannot proof God’s existance and how much he love us. I guess it’s not helpful for me to proof God’s existance.
As you mentioned above--faith is based on real evidence from Bible or any other revealation. Since we cannot proof his existance, we persuaded by the evidence which is less than absoulte proof. Let me give you a example, please don’t take any offense
Can you be sure your spouse loves you?
If the answer is Yes, she loves you. You are reasonably persuaded by the evidence to believe it. Evidence can lead to result on which we will even stake our live without necessarily being absolutely the result of strict logic.

That’s why some people never believe the gospel until they can proof it or they find revelation in their live from God.

[quote author="Jo Gray"]

Thirdly, WHY does God allow Satan to work in our lives? God’s response to Job when he asks that question is pretty clear: I am the almighty God, don’t question me. (you will have to read chapters 38-40 to understand this) WHY is the wrong question to ask, rather, it is all about KNOWING THE GOD WHO KNOWS WHY.

Jo.

I agree in this point. Sometime I find God is like a big boss. Since we’re creation and the image of him, we have to achieve his will to secure our kingdomship.

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Pro13:12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but when dreams come true,there is life and joy.

Ecc4:9 Two are better than one......10 If one falls down,his friend can help him up.But pity the man who falls and has noone to help him up!

   
18 April 2005 4:12am
943 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]

[quote author="Craig Schwarze"]
Which specific passage did you have in mind Ray?

I’m wondering why God need to do that way to discipline us. Is there other way to achieve his purpose. He is God. There is no impossible for him
Well, the only thing I can say is we all don’t know much about God until the last day comes on earth.

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Pro13:12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but when dreams come true,there is life and joy.

Ecc4:9 Two are better than one......10 If one falls down,his friend can help him up.But pity the man who falls and has noone to help him up!

   
18 April 2005 4:56am
5473 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]

Which “demon” passage of scripture were you referring to, though?

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18 April 2005 5:47am
943 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]

[quote author="Craig Schwarze"]Which “demon” passage of scripture were you referring to, though?

It just came up on my head to ask the question after I finished some reading in the topic of suffering. I wasn’t referring to any specific scripture at all.

And I was looking for different views from you guys.

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Pro13:12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but when dreams come true,there is life and joy.

Ecc4:9 Two are better than one......10 If one falls down,his friend can help him up.But pity the man who falls and has noone to help him up!

   
18 April 2005 11:11am
943 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]

Jo Gray’s post somehow stimulate my mind to think more deep in the topic of blind faith.

Well, as a ministery worker, what they are looking for return in this life --Salvation?? And we all knew that our victory is not in this world. I wonder there is no point to proof the existance of heaven if we are truly love God and fully invovle in the minstery.

So, is it kind of blind faith in here? Christians offer time, money and effort to the ministery without any absoule proof of his existance. Can I say love is blind as well.

Let’s make a stupid assumption.
People often say christian waste their time and enjoyment during their life time, if we figure it out at the end there is no God in this universe.

I would say to them, At least we do the right things (ex. lots of charity or good work) in this world that only few people is doing right during our life. And it’s a pretty big deal for us to believe God’s existance before the last day come. If Ibelieve God until the last day he come to judge this world. I don’t have any chance to escape at all.
And Christianity doctrine is much more make sense than the other as I thought it before.so why not?

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Pro13:12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but when dreams come true,there is life and joy.

Ecc4:9 Two are better than one......10 If one falls down,his friend can help him up.But pity the man who falls and has noone to help him up!

   
18 April 2005 10:00pm
327 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]

It’s interesting that everyone keeps going on about “absolute proof”. Can you absolutely proove that the sun will rise tomorrow? Yet you do have plans for tomorrow right?

In the end we can not absolutely proove anything. Everything we know comes from one of two sources:

1) Outside revelation (somebody told us)
2) Inductive reason (it seems to always happen a certain way, so we assume that it always will)

Even mathematics (where proofs are not inductive but deductive) is based entirely on axioms that can not be proved deductively. In fact there is no way to “prove” anything if you want to get nitty-gritty.

Since all knowledge comes from either experience or revelation I think when people say that they cant “proove” that God exists, they mean that they have never experienced God to do anything.

This is a very silly argument though because if we are to completely discount revelatory knowledge in this way we should do away with our education system. I mean - have you “seen” for yourself everything that you learned in school? I doubt it. Some things you know because you have been told.

Thats exactly why we know what we know about God. We have revelatory knowledge. God told us. The “faith” part is believing God’s word. When someone tells you something you can chose to believe them or not. Same with God.

Christian faith is about as far away from a “blind leap” as you can get. We believe that God will carry out His promises because, time and time again in the past He has shown Himself to be unswervingly faithful. How do we know about what He has done in the past? We have been told.

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They have healed the wound of my people lightly, crying, ‘Peace! Peace!’ where there is no peace.

(Jer 6:14)

   
19 April 2005 2:44am
766 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]

Absolute proof of the existence of God is impossible. If we mere humans could put Him in a test-tube He’d be smaller than us and that is not the God of the Bible.

Cornelius van Til was correct when he argued that Christian apologetics has to start by taking God at His word. For as soon as you start with any sort of presumption that a human system of thinking can establish the existence and identity of the infinite Lord God you have presumed Him out of existence. And your system will fall apart and leave you with no proof of anything, because only the existence of the God of the Bible gives meaning to anything.

As for the issue of faith being blind or not, what do people make of the following?

1) Faith is contrasted with seeing in 2 Corinthians 5:7. We walk by faith and not by sight.
2) Also, in the Hebrews 11:1 verse that’s been quoted against the idea of faith being blind it says that faith is being certain of ‘what we do not see’.
3) And Jesus said to Thomas, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:29)

Sounds to me like the Bible is in fact saying that faith is “blind”. It’s not saying that it’s stupid, ill-founded, irrational, without evidence, etc - but it is definitely ‘blind’.

And rightly so, because once again, the God in whom we have faith is larger than us and thus we cannot grasp Him, we cannot ‘see’ Him. We can know Him, for He is personal as well as infinite, and He has met us in the Person of Christ, but the only one’s whose faith was by sight in any sense were the apostles who’ve passed their testimony onto us. As John said,

[quote author="1 John 1:1-4"]1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched–this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make our joy complete.

I suspect that in our deep desire to win modernist thinkers over to the Christian viewpoint we sometimes allow apologetic confidence to override the plain teaching of Scripture. We so want to pursuade people that we try too hard to represent faith to them as something that they can fit into their current intellectual processes. In doing so, I wonder if we aren’t selling them something that isn’t exactly the Biblical perspective?  (Maybe I’m being too harsh - interested in the thoughts of others.)

Ray has also asked the question about why God allows our faith to be tested.  I see at least two reasons for this:

1) we don’t get taken out of the world when we become Christians. We are left here to be Christ’s ambassadors, so that more people can hear the message and come to the same ‘blind faith’ that we have. Being left here automatically means that we still face the consequences of sin in the world, with the cursed ground to till and the whole creation groaning in travail around us (see Romans 8). The only alternative is the end of the world. That will happen, but God wants more people to join the heavenly dance party first;

2) while we are being His people in this world, we grow in our faith. The testing that we undergo is intended to convince us more and more that God is real and is at work in our lives. As Paul says in Romans 5:

[quote author="Romans 5:1-5"]1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

The Parable of the Sower is relevant here, too, because Jesus speaks of people who wither once the testing comes, revealing that their faith wasn’t blind enough - ie they were wanting more immediacy, more instant results, more things to see in their lives straight away rather than their reliance being in the sufficiency of God alone. Tough times throw such people, but for people who hang on to God the tought times are rich times of blessing. (See our discussion on the depression thread!)

And in the end that’s what it’s all about. Growing in faith is growing more and more in the knowledge that it’s all about Jesus. That I can do nothing, that I need to do nothing, but simply to trust Him. I am born with a natural desire to climb the ladder to heaven myself. Becoming a Christian is just the first step in a life long process of unlearning that habit.

Which gets us back to the original question, how does God overrule the demons to achieve His purposes? He does it firstly be defeating them utterly in the death and resurrection of Christ; then He does it in our lives by growing Christ in us as our faith is strengthened. Satan wants us to want to ‘see’, to rely on the material world and the things that we can ‘prove’, the things that we can do for ourselves. God wants us to exercise ‘blind faith’ in Him and cast ourselves on Him utterly. As we do this more and more, the realm of Satan is overthrown in our lives. As we humble ourselves under God’s mighty hand, Satan flees from us. (cf James 4:7)

Thus, it is by His word - the word of the cross, the living and active word of God that is the sword of the Spirit - that the demons are overruled.

This is foolishness to most people, but to those of us who have blind faith, it is the message of eternal life.

   
19 April 2005 6:13am
1191 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]

Mr LAu
your post on choosing to live a good life (in so far as fallen sinners can) sounds like a version of Pascal’s wager. Did you mean it to be?

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Peter Kirsop
my blog: The law and more currently blogging on President Carter and on Deposit Bonds.

   
   
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