[quote author="Luke Stevens"] +10 points for the next person to start a new thread…

I want those ten points, Luke!! So here goes.

I would be interested in a sharing of thoughts and ideas from people about how they approach living out their faith at work. I’ve set this up within the Diocesan Mission heading, but it isn’t just confined to that objective of course.

My interest is not just in how you personally behave as a Christian (eg do you abstain from certain work functions of dubious morality), but how does being a Christian make a difference to the way you do your work. I have some things to say about my situation, that I will write up when I am not actually at work, but I’d like to hear from others first.

Hopefully we can use this to challenge and encourage one another to do all things to the glory of God (Col 3:17)

Without any attempt yet to answer Warren’s question, can I add a little to it? What at church (Sunday, small groups, informal opportunities, ...) helps you live as a Christian at work?

I am self employed, owning a cleaning business.
It has been commented to me when I give my invoices on how honest I am with my hours, or how well a job I do.

As a Christian I use my time as a self employed missionary, I pray for all my clients, I ask the lord to open the door for me to be a witness, one young man has just had a baby, and I have been able to build a relationship with him, leaving notes from time to time on his desk encouraging him, telling him I pray for himself and his family etc, which feed back from his boss(who is a christian) has been positive.

I have found that working in a varied non Christian environment that I can see closely firsthand the brokenness of humanity which has helped me immensly, after spending 2 1/2 years at Bible college one becomes sheltered and idealistic re: the real world.

Most of my work is done during out of hours and I find myself talking to shiftworkers, Some Places I lay my hands on office chairs and pray for the workers, for their families etc and have a lot of time to sow into their lives in the spiritual realm.

craig....Ask and believe and you shall receieve.

thanks Craig ! that is such a good thing to do - praying for your clients - praying in the space where people spend so much time.

I sometimes remember to pray as I walk to work, asking God’s blessing for the day, for me as I work and deal with people, asking for God’s love to flow through everything and everyone.

The office where I work has a public area, sometimes clients come in and get angry with the counter staff, or with each other, and now when I hear this happening I pray for God to calm things down, for peace, for love and resolution to the difficulties.  And this seems to work.  (At least I’m calmed down by it!)

thanks again Craig, and Warren for starting this discussion, I feel really encouraged,

Lynn

I think for too long, we have seperated the line between ‘work’ and ‘church’...or more simply, ‘secular’ and ‘sacred’.

Jesus didn’t do this.  He walked the streets...ate in other peoples homes...went fishing… Should Jesus be walking around today, you would be more likely to find him at the local pub than in the pulpits of our great cathedrals.

Being a Christian at work for me is the same as being a Christian at ‘church’.  As we are all made in the image of God (regardless of a personal commitment of faith or otherwise), there is a sense of sacred in all of us.

That said, I have found myself having to make a stand from time to time across the years when I have had to confront issues within the workplace.  For the most part, I am respected for my stands (I am always careful not to make it a big deal, or to seek some type of compromise - a trade off with another employee or something like that).  The only major problems I ever encountered was when I worked with a practising wiccan.  But even then, a calm head and God’s spirit is enough to diffuse any situation.

Its time to break God out of the “church’, and into ‘the church’!!!!

[quote author="Mike"]I think for too long, we have separated the line between ‘work’ and ‘church’...or more simply, ‘secular’ and ‘sacred’.

So very true, the idea of the ‘Sunday Christian’ is a terrible one, but you don’t even have to take it that far.  It doesn’t have to be as drastic as not acknowledging your Christianity during the week, it could be things like using your busyness at work as an excuse for not spending time in prayer/in the word (I know I’ve done that).

It is an interesting question you have put Warren, thanks.  For myself I think I may have mentioned previously here that working for a mission somewhat limits my ability to witness to my workmates (or at least it better! :) and that has caused me some concern as my contact with those outside of Christ is sadly limited.  But in my circumstance it is more as edifying and building up the family of God.  In my work do I reflect God in the way I react to problems?  Am I looking at the situations and problems I face from a temporal or eternal point of view?  Do I try and fix the problems myself or do I give them to God for a solution?  While the way I react to these questions can’t get anyone saved here, it can affect people.  I can be harsh or disagreeable or insubordinate (If my boss read this I think he’d want me to underline that one), and that can cause people to stumble and have problems spiritually.  I remember at an old job I had (in the back dock at Big W) it was as simple as not swearing & not stealing damaged stock (both of which were very common there).

I think CS Lewis may have a suggestion on this discussion

It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you may talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and corruption such as you now meet if at all only in a nightmare. All day long we are in some degree helping each other to one or the other of these destinations. It is in light of these overwhelming possibilities it is with awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics. There are no ordinary people. You have never met a mere mortal, Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations, these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit—immortal horrors or ever lasting splendours.
CS Lewis The Weight of Glory

I remember using this passage at a youth camp I was a leader at, emphasising the sentence “All day long we are in some degree helping each other to one or the other of these destinations.” The impact these words had on the kids was amazing, I don’t think that they had thought before about the fact that if we say we are Christian then the way we act around people effects the way they react to God.  I think this is an important thing to remember, as DL Moody said “Out of 100 men, one will read the Bible, the other 99 will read the Christian.”

Glenn

Faith in the workplace

In the other thread on the SMH/Good Weekend article, reference is made to Phil Jensen supposedly having said to David Milliken that he should have been using his job as head of ABC religious affairs to preach the gospel of Christ. The implication is that Milliken should not have been arranging programs about any other religion, but really using that job as a way of hammering home the gospel to people. Well to the handful who watch the ABC anyway! ;-) (see I’m learning these smiley things, too)

Quite apart from whether Phil Jensen really did say that or not, what do people think of this idea?  If someone is hired to produce programs on all religions, then isn’t that his/her job? Wouldn’t it be living faithfully if you made sure that each program was presented using credible sources, arguing both sides of a case and trying to establish the truth? You could do a program on say hinduism that included talking not only to hindu leaders, but to people like that guy who wrote “Death of a Guru” many years ago. You would make sure that you ran as many programs on Christianity as you possibly could, but you wouldn’t have to run only Christian programs, would you?

Then apply this to other walks of life. If I work as a bank teller (or customer service officer, sorry ;-) now I’m overdoing the smilies) am I only being faithful if I ask each customer whether they would like forgiveness with their withdrawal? If I work at the ticket booth for City Rail, do I have to ask each customer if they want a ticket to heaven as well as a return to central?  Or if I work at McDonalds’ should I defy the system and ask if the customer would like the bread of life with their burger?

I have to say that I don’t think so, but it seems to be the implication of what was attributed to the Dean in the Good Weekend article. Do we agree with that or not?

Re: Faith in the workplace

[quote author="I C Dimly"]In the other thread on the SMH/Good Weekend article, reference is made to Phil Jensen supposedly having said to David Milliken that he should have been using his job as head of ABC religious affairs to preach the gospel of Christ. The implication is that Milliken should not have been arranging programs about any other religion, but really using that job as a way of hammering home the gospel to people.

I’m going to have to wait & see if Jeremy can get the text of that article to see what it said to be sure, but I don’t think Phillip Jensen meant that David had to only talk about Christianity, because as you mentioned, that would not be what he was hired for.  If he did mean that, then I disagree with it as well. 

In all the hypothetical situations you gave I think it’s safe to say that the person should always be looking for an opportunity to share their faith, but in the right situation.  Sharing & preaching is not the goal here, getting souls for Christ is the point, and talking about God to people in inappropriate situations can cause more damage than good.  I mean how interested is a rushed commuter going to be in hearing about God when his train is about to leave without him?

I guess it comes down to discernment.  Being able to discern where people are at & what they need to hear is, I believe, a spiritual gift and God gives us compassion to reach people at the point they need it.  In some cases what you described may be appropriate, but I think these would be in the minority.

Also when we are hired to do a job, we should do that job to the best of our ability, except where doing so goes against God’s laws.  I don’t think David Milliken showing programs about other religions is against God, I mean if we agree with Phillip Jensen’s inaugural speech about if Christianity is right then other religions must be wrong then showing those religions in a real and truthful way will expose the lie of them.  However if David shows programs that misrepresents the truth either to promote a religion or to attack one then his is doing something wrong (I believe) before God.

My 2.2 cents

Glenn

IC dimly said

Then apply this to other walks of life. If I work as a bank teller (or customer service officer, sorry ;-) now I’m overdoing the smilies) am I only being faithful if I ask each customer whether they would like forgiveness with their withdrawal? If I work at the ticket booth for City Rail, do I have to ask each customer if they want a ticket to heaven as well as a return to central? Or if I work at McDonalds’ should I defy the system and ask if the customer would like the bread of life with their burger?

I think that there is wisdom in working at relationship evangelism in the workplace/school/uni/tafe/leisure etc… I also think that it is helpful not to burn your bridges by being unloving in the way that you share the gospel with colleagues.  However, I think we are at times so worried about not burning our bridges that we never actually cross them!

The above way of working spoken of a macca’s/ city rail/ or banker… although we may not totally agree with the method… it shows that that person has understood the urgency and priority of the Gospel.

All of us are soft.  We don’t take the many opportunities that God gives us each day.  We need to pray for boldness and an understanding of Christ’s love and the gospel that would compel us to tell people.

I think that many of us haven’t understood the gospel properly.  It is only Jesus that saves.  The gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is God’s power for salvation for everyone who believes.

Until we actually understand the gospel we will keep on making up excuses of why we don’t make the most of the opportunities God keeps giving us.

I know that it was God who was at work through Paul, and that all the glory should go to God alone, but, what would Paul have been like walking down the street?  How would have he made the most of the opportunities?  Or on the train?  Or at uni?  Or at work?  I’m sure that the people who knew Paul would have known the gospel that he was preaching.  Whether they believed the claims that the gospel made, well that was up to God…

We need to pray for our Christian leaders that they would be bold as they ought… pray for ourselves also that we would be bold and proclaim the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Part of living out our christianity in public is in listening to what the Holy Spirit bids us do.

A few weeks ago I was at lunch at Silverwater with my wife when I noticed a man eating on his own. A strong urge came over me to say to this man “Though you are going through a hard time now, God knows and has a plan for your life”

I prayed earnestly “Lord if this burden is not from you, take it away from me” the burden only intensified so I walked up and asked if i could have a moment of his time. And said “You may think I’m nut’s, I’m a Christian and I felt the Lord say go and tell you this.” and I told him. He got very flustered and said “nothings hard for me, what parish are you from?” I told him and asked “what church he came from?, from which he replied none at all.
It all got to much for him and he walked out. Only God and that man knows the result of that conversation, though from his body language what I said to him was like a sword thrust direct to the heart.

I wonder how effective or ineffective our evangelism is because of us hearing or not hearing the Holy Spirit.? and perhaps obeying or not obeying him.

craig

[quote author="Craig Bennett"]Part of living out our christianity in public is in listening to what the Holy Spirit bids us do.... A strong urge came over me to say to this man “Though you are going through a hard time now, God knows and has a plan for your life” I prayed earnestly “Lord if this burden is not from you, take it away from me” the burden only intensified so…
I wonder how effective or ineffective our evangelism is because of us hearing or not hearing the Holy Spirit.? and perhaps obeying or not obeying him.

craig

Craig,

I’m not convinced that that is the way that God guides or the Spirit works. 

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.  Heb 1:1-2 [esv]

It is not that God cannot work through giving us strong urges or dreams or visions and what not, however there is no need for God to work like that.  God’s word is final, complete and sufficient in Christ Jesus.  In the past he has spoken to us in many and various ways… but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son… Jesus.  God’s final and complete word to us is JESUS.

God can speak to us in these ways.

But he doesn’t need to.  God has spoken to us by his Son.

As far as the Spirit is concerned… well the way that God speaks to us today is by his Son through his Spirit in the Scriptures.  We cannot separate the Spirit from the Word.

We cannot expect God to work in other ways.  He may, but he doesn’t promise it, and we shouldn’t expect him to guide us in ways other than the work of his Spirit through the Scriptures.

I think as I interact with many Christians they seem to be waiting for some type of nudge from God to get up and evangelise… what more do we need than seeing the plans of God revealed to us (illuminated by the Spirit) and knowing of the salvation that Christ Jesus has purchased for us?

Craig… I think that it was a great thing to talk to that man… but the thing that should motivate us is not some strange and vague feeling… but a strong conviction of the gospel, the power of it to save, and the desperate state that that man was in. 

Why are we waiting for opportunities to land in our laps?  Why aren’t we on about the lost?  If we really love people we will share the good news of Jesus with them.

Craig… and others if you haven’t read it… Guidance and the Voice of God is a must read.  I have read many Christians books and some that are much more difficult to understand and in depth… but this would have to be the single most helpful book, outside of the Bible, that I have read and continue to recommend to young Christians.  It’s available through Matthias Media ( )

Grace and Peace

faith and the workplace

There’s a lot I could say about the issues that Craig’s last post raised, but I’d like to try rather to get this topic back onto what I had in mind when I originally asked the question. How does being a Christian make a difference to the way we work? I was hoping for some battle stories, some real life sharing of how situations people have encountered at work have been dealt with differently to the norm because you are a Christian. Craig started along those lines several posts ago when he talked about honesty in billing clients and the way he prays for them.

Surely there are managers out there who have worked through what it means to be a Christian manager of staff? Surely there are people who have had difficult situations and their faith has seen them through in some way? I want to hear from people who run fellowship groups at work and what they do in those groups. Etc, etc.

Thanks everyone. Let’s just share our thoughts rather than respond to other comments in this thread.

Sorry Warren, it seems that I led this talk off track in speaking of how I miinister within my work place enviorenment.

I have just come through a ethical situation myself. A client has gone into administration and I will lose about a months pay which is nearly equal to a weeks work. 2 days ago the administrator sent me a fax asking me to clean the factory / office for the next 2 weeks with a purchase order number and an address to send the invoice to.

As well the office manager rang me and said to bill what ever I felt right.

The temptation was to charge more over the two weeks to try and recoup lost earnings. I reasoned in my mind that it was a reasonable thing to do as I had already paid the young guy who helps me, that at least I could recoup his wages, as minor as they were. (My step son helps and earns pocket money). That the contract I was under was know nill and void that I was working for someone else and they said charge whatever etc etc…

I prayed about it, and prayed more, and prayed more, and finally on wednesday night when I cleaned the building I was praying for all the workers there who lost their jobs, when the question came to mind “Who pays you” I immediatly thought God pays me, he is the one who supplies all my needs, so I will charge them what I normally would.

As soon as I made that decision the peace of God came to me, and I am able to forgive and release the lost earnings into the hands of the Lord.

craig...I will provide all your needs

living the faith at work

I’m going to try to kick start this one again.

An example from my situation might prompt some more comments from others. I am an investment manager. Many investment managers make their decisions by predicting the future - where interest rates are headed, what the economy is going to do next year, how far the stock market is going to rise or fall, etc. They then try to convince people to invest with them with arguments to the effect that they are smarter than everyone else at predicting the future. I used to have to try to do this as well, but I always wrestled with the fact that I don’t know the future and I don’t think anybody does. I was uncomfortable with the idea of asking people to invest their money with me so that I could in effect speculate with it. My conscience troubled me that I was being paid to do something that I didn’t think was valid - or at least that I didn’t believe I could do.

Over the years I prayerfully worked through a different approach to making investment decisions, one that I can live with as a Christian. God brought into my professional life a range of different people and I was able to take some good ideas from each of them and synthesise them into a more appropriate investment process. He also opened up for me the opportunity to move to a new firm (my current employer) that had a Christian CEO who was also keen on having a non-speculative approach to investing. I have been implementing this approach for the past several years. This isn’t an advertisement, so I wont’ say who it is, but we are not insubstantial in the industry. I say that to emphasise that this is a credible, accepted approach, not some tin-pot idea that has no real application in the real world.

I am not saying that what I do is uniquely Christian. IE it isn’t “religious” and my staff are all comfortable with it even though they don’t share my faith. You don’t have to be a Christian to believe that it is a good way of making investment decisions.  Nor is it the only way that a Christian could make decisions.  But it is a process that is consistent with Christian belief, unlike many others out there in the investment market.

Note that I am not talking about “socially responsible investing”, though that is another example of where Christian investment managers (like those at Glebe Asset Management) have tried to work through how the faith affects their work.

I am also greatly blessed by God to be in a corporate position where I have the authority to determine the way things are done. I recognise that not everyone is going to be able to change things at their workplace even if they wanted to do so.  But I really would like to hear of others who have been able to bring about changes in the way they do their work that are the result of applying Christian principles.  I think it would be greatly encouraging for others to make the effort at their workplaces as well, as an outworking of living lives that are worthy of the gospel.

Being a Christian in the workplace

Further to your previous comments Warren in regard to work practices that consciously reflect my Christian beliefs, I have taken some inspiration from Proverbs 22:29 where a man skilled in his work is clearly praised.  Whilst a discussion on what ‘professionalism’ really means is not the point, I do think that our Christian motive of serving others should spur us on to achieve an intimate knowledge of our chosen field of work regardless of our level or pay, that we may offer the best advice and service to those we deal with.  We all know the reputation of swiss craftmanship or the food of a favourite restaurant.  Wouldn’t it be great if people everywhere knew Christians to have a reputation for excellence in the workplace because of our willingness to serve others beyond the minimum requirements, and to stand firm in our commitment to integrity.  In my job in government, I have found that many social justice issues lie behind even relatively small decisions.  I have also observed that the sinfulness of humans is evident in meetings where decisions are often made.  Opposing people in meetings of any sort will use skills of social manipulation of others anything from power talk, to using alot of jargon to appealing to irrelevant emotional issues to manipulate the decision makers to support their cause.  It takes a person skilled in knowledge of their chosen field and often wise in the words they choose to ensure decisions are made on the basis of facts.  I have also found that when people in the workplace feel comfortable coming to you for professional advice they are also more respectful when you share Jesus with them. 

From a management point of view - from my observations (I am not in a managerial position myself) and the trends that appear to be in management today, any person in this role committed to managing people and not performance targets will immediately stand out.  I have often been astounded at the shortfalls in knowledge of management of what is happening at grass roots level in an organisation basically because people lower down are just ‘numbers’.  Plenty of opportunity for loving and professional work practices here and for Christians to stand out because it certainly doesn’t seem like the norm.

faith in the workplace

Here is something that Narwee Baptist church has circulated among its members (and some other friends) today that is relevant to this topic:

Witness in the Workplace

“Creative colonization for Christ often takes different forms in different environments, and it seldom looks like the traditional method of preaching fire and brimstone at the water cooler. Here’s what it looks like specifically:

“It is the CEO of a publicly held global Fortune 25 company who pushes the boundaries by inserting his personal testimony into the annual report, checking to see if it’s possible to have Christian on-hold music, and allowing a once-a-month luncheon at the corporate office to talk about ethics and excellence in the work environment.

“It is the dermatologist who travels to India once a year on a mission trip, covers his office walls with pictures from his trip, and takes the time to explain to inquiring patients exactly why he has a heart for a distant people.

“It is a sole proprietor who makes it clear that his commitment to Christ drives him to expend specific energy to hire single mothers in desperate need of a job that pays a good salary and offers a flexible schedule.

“It is a division vice president responsible for global operations in a publicly held company who has on his desk a framed copy of his biblically based personal operation principles and who goes over those principles with every new hire who joins the team.

“It is the consulting business that takes a portion of its profits each year and splits them among its employees to give to ministry-minded needs around the world.

“It is a surgeon who asks her patients if she can pray for them right before the surgery begins.

“It is the family owned manufacturer that opens chapels in its plants and hires chaplains to minister to the factory workers.

“It is the construction company that not only supports overseas missions with money, but also sends its employees into the mission field on a regular basis.

“It’s the business owner who purposely works to open factories in countries that are closed to missionaries so that his workers can spread the light of Jesus to a workforce living in the dark.

“It is the cardiovascular surgeon living by the Golden Rule who has set up a structure that makes it affordable for young doctors to enter the field, joining his staff and having an equal vote in how things are run.
It is the entrepreneur who runs her company by biblical values and principles and lets her employees and clients know that so they can hold her accountable for business practices.

“It is the marketing guru who has identified and launched ideas and products and “does deals” with most all the major retail and discount chains in the country to place Christian products on the shelves of their stores.

“It is the doctors, nurses, and other staffers at one of the largest cancer centers in the country, telling their patients about the chaplains available to talk to them regarding spiritual needs.”