Quote:
“Come on Craig! You can’t quote yourself!”

-Gordon Cheng

Why NOT????

:) craig - I thought it was rather profound myself.

Mate, any day above ground is a good day

-Sam the Butcher

Yes, but some of us are out there diggin’ holes.

-Cheng the cynic

There is nothing better for a person than that he should eat and drink and find enjoyment in his toil. This also, I saw, is from the hand of God, for apart from him who can eat or who can have enjoyment? For to the one who pleases him God has given wisdom and knowledge and joy, but to the sinner he has given the business of gathering and collecting, only to give to one who pleases God. This also is vanity and a striving after wind.

- Ecclesiastes 2:24-26

[quote author="Qohelet"]There is nothing better for a person than to eat, drink, and find enjoyment in his toil. I saw that this, too, was from the hand of God, for who can eat and who is troubled apart from him? Indeed, to the person he perceives as good he gives wisdom, knowledge, and joy. But to the “sinner” he gives the task of collecting and gathering to provide for the one God perceives as good. This, too, is senseless and like trying to direct the wind.

Do you really believe this, Gordon?

Is there nothing better for us to do than eat, drink, and enjoy our work when we get the chance?

After all, Qohelet only reached this conclusion because he found that all his toil would come to nothing when he died, just like the animals die. He didn’t even say eating, drinking, and finding enjoyment was a good thing, only that there is nothing better. (We have to, after all, read these words in context!)

[quote author="Enkidu Jones"][quote author="Qohelet"]There is nothing better for a person than to eat, drink, and find enjoyment in his toil. I saw that this, too, was from the hand of God, for who can eat and who is troubled apart from him? Indeed, to the person he perceives as good he gives wisdom, knowledge, and joy. But to the “sinner” he gives the task of collecting and gathering to provide for the one God perceives as good. This, too, is senseless and like trying to direct the wind.

Do you really believe this, Gordon?

Is there nothing better for us to do than eat, drink, and enjoy our work when we get the chance?

Brother, I don’t know where that quote is from that you just quoted me - probably that funny NET bible thingy you keep talking about.

But if it’s in the bible, I believe it, of course!

Anyway, Eccles was talking about life under the sun, and insofar as my life is lived under the sun, I am happy to endorse his view.

[quote author="Gordon Cheng"] Brother, I don’t know where that quote is from that you just quoted me - probably that funny NET bible thingy you keep talking about.

Not this time. It’s my translation.
[quote author="Gordon Cheng"]But if it’s in the bible, I believe it, of course!

So do you believe this, from Eccles 9:
[quote author="Qohelet"]People do not realise that everything before them is senseless, as there is one fate for all: for the righteous and for the wicked, for the good [and for the evil], for the clean and for the unclean, for the one who sacrifices and for the one who does not. As for the good person, so for the sinner, as for the one who swears an oath, so for the one afraid to swear. This evil is in everything that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for everyone… the dead do not know anything, and they no longer have a return for they are forgotten. Also, their love, their hatred, and their jealousy have already perished…

or even this, from Job 4:
[quote author="Eliphaz"]Call to mind now:
Who, being innocent, ever perished?
And where were upright people ever destroyed?
Even as I have seen, those who plow iniquity
and those who sow trouble reap the same.
By the breath of God they perish,
and by the blast of his anger they are consumed.

[quote author="Gordon Cheng"] Anyway, Eccles was talking about life under the sun, and insofar as my life is lived under the sun, I am happy to endorse his view.

Actually, I think Qohelet was talking about life without any awareness (or at least any acknowledgment) of special revelation, in which case we cannot agree with his conclusions if we believe God has spoken.

Hey Enkidu

for some years I flip-flopped between the view you’ve expressed (I think) and the view I now hold, which is that when speaking of “life under the sun”, Qoheleth/Eccles never loses sight of or denies God’s special revelation, he simply observes the world, without making reference to that special revelation - and yes, I think there is a difference.

(Eliphaz was a nutter and by the end of Job that is apparent, so although his words are in the bible I don’t believe them.)

However if you don’t mind I think I am going to have to leave this alone for a while, and come back to clarify my meaning at a later stage…

[quote author="Gordon Cheng"]for some years I flip-flopped between the view you’ve expressed (I think) and the view I now hold, which is that when speaking of “life under the sun”, Qoheleth/Eccles never loses sight of or denies God’s special revelation, he simply observes the world, without making reference to that special revelation - and yes, I think there is a difference.

Thanks, Gordon. I’m familiar with the view you espouse, but have never seen a presentation of it which is not ultimately contrived or fails to do justice to the text.
[quote author="Gordon Cheng"](Eliphaz was a nutter and by the end of Job that is apparent, so although his words are in the bible I don’t believe them.)

Indeed God declares his words to be misguided at the end of Job. The point is, of course, that it is dangerous to quote out of context, no matter how true the words may seem. Qohelet is no nutter, indeed, he is the greatest of sages, but nowhere does he once indicate any awareness of God’s special revelation, and he probably even expresses some disdain toward those who do claim to have access to it!
[quote author="Gordon Cheng"]However if you don’t mind I think I am going to have to leave this alone for a while, and come back to clarify my meaning at a later stage…

That’s fine. My book should be out by next year, and you can read all that I think on the matter then…

quotes and threads

Enkidu you said:

Indeed God declares his words to be misguided at the end of Job. The point is, of course, that it is dangerous to quote out of context, no matter how true the words may seem. Qohelet is no nutter, indeed, he is the greatest of sages, but nowhere does he once indicate any awareness of God’s special revelation, and he probably even expresses some disdain toward those who do claim to have access to it!

So true. Proverbs 9:8-10 says that the begining of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. Qohelet is no sage (no real wisdom)

Ken

[quote author="Ken Austin"]Proverbs 9:8-10 says that the begining of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. Qohelet is no sage (no real wisdom)

Not the sort of wisdom the Bible approves of, anyway, for that wisdom is described in Deut 4:5-6
[quote author="Moses"]See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the LORD my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, “Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.”

This wisdom is tied to obedience, not to a knack for abstract philosophical thought!

For the sheer beauty of these words

Deut. 33:12 About Benjamin he said: “Let the beloved of the LORD rest secure in him, for he shields him all day long, and the one the LORD loves rests between his shoulders.”

No other literature comes close to the beauty of the bible. Not Shakespeare and not even, dare I say it, TS Eliot.

“During all the time that I have worked as an archaeologist, I have not seen or heard of any [ancient] document which contradicts a single sentence of the Hebrew Bible.”

- Professor Allan Millard

He said it yesterday(Aug 24) , at an archaeology lecture for students at Moore Theological College. Professor Millard (who helped edit the third edition of the New Bible Dictionary) retired last year from his post at the School of Archaeology, Classics and Oriental Studies at the University of Liverpool.

Hey Enkidu(Akkadian man of mystery), were you there? I see that he’s on at Macuarie Uni tomorrow night, there’s an ad for it here ; I understand he’s out giving some fabbo high flying memorial lecture for archaeologists but I forget the details.

Also the quote is as I remember it so one or two words may be slightly off. Anyone there taking good notes can give us the correct wording?

[quote author="Gordon Cheng"]Hey Enkidu(Akkadian man of mystery), were you there?

No, I’m afraid I wasn’t there (no-one told me about it). Although I recently had the privilege of hearing Gary Rendsburg speak on new discoveries in biblical archaeology, which was very worthwhile. Thanks for the info, however. Unfortunately I doubt I’ll be free to hear him.
[quote author="Allan Millard"]During all the time that I have worked as an archaeologist, I have not seen or heard of any [ancient] document which contradicts a single sentence of the Hebrew Bible.

Although it sounds very nice, it isn’t really saying a lot. A good deal of archaeology doesn’t work with texts (there just aren’t enough of them!), and much is made by some archaeologists of the absence of physical evidence for some events in the Bible. Furthermore, not many aNE texts make any direct reference to Israel, so there really is very little info to contradict.

OTOH, I think the small amount of direct evidence does tend to support the biblical record. Some pieces of evidence are open to interpretation, and so cannot be construed as either supporting or refuting the Bible.

In the end, much archaeological detail is ambiguous. Stele and other inscriptions are the least ambiguous, but even these cannot be seen as unbiased records which can always be taken at face value.

[quote author="Enkidu Jones"][quote author="Gordon Cheng"]Hey Enkidu(Akkadian man of mystery), were you there?

No, I’m afraid I wasn’t there (no-one told me about it).

I myself only found out about 5 minutes before the event. I think it was in-house.

Although it sounds very nice, it isn’t really saying a lot. A good deal of archaeology doesn’t work with texts (there just aren’t enough of them!), and much is made by some archaeologists of the absence of physical evidence for some events in the Bible.

Yes, but it has a little apologetic value, which doesn’t hurt. It has value as a ground-clearing exercise (if I can say that about archaeology).

I’m going through my notes for Han’s and my Romans exam that’s coming up soon (not that I’m cramming or anything, nooooooo).  My study technique has necessitated typing out this verse four times in the last five minutes, and it’s struck me as incredible every time I hit it. 

[quote author="Romans 4:17b"]...the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.

How cool is that!