[Ian, bit bored today at work? Or just hyped about rushing off to dinner? (In a mightily inquitous place, mixing with heathens and sub-Christians… ;) ;) ;) ]

Nunc: I consider it my “calling” to reach out to those sub-Christian Romans and others...and eat dinner with them at every opportunity: I can still taste that wild boar...mmmm! ;-)

My main reason for starting this was that I’m currently going through an Orthodox treatise on “Faith and Works”, and they often contrasted it with “the Protestant view”—and I realised I had no idea what it was! ;-)

Thanks to all for your responses: my brain isn’t firing on all cylinders this morning [does it ever?], so I may respond a bit later.

[quote author="Jason"]Recently after the service at Church, another parishioner responded to a comment I made in relation to grace and works, by stating that they though sometimes people confuse the idea of works, with good deeds.

This is what I was wondering also: and this was kind of confirmed with Rod’s statement “If I go to church twice each week rather than once, is God going to treat me any differently in my life?”—I’d say not.  But there is (and I show my horrid lack of Bible knowledge here) somewhere (I think) where it seems to suggest that some are rewarded more than others—and I can only think that this must be in some part due to the works we are called to do.  (Please note this is my view and in no way represents Orthodoxy—as far as I know).  But that is raising more issues, and I haven’t even responded to the others: so I’ll shut up.

God bless,
Ian.

‘Tis amazing what a shower can do!  I feel alive again! ;-)

Thanks again, all.  I’ll try and respond to you each, but as I didn’t expect such generous replies, it may take longer than I thought.  If I miss your point, please feel free to shout, “Oi! What about my post!”, at me. ;-)

Denise – great to see you again!  Care to share your learned thoughts?

First, as requested by Rowen, the Orthodox™ take on the verses he first mentioned (as described in the Orthodox NT & Psalms Study Bible).

For Ephesians 2:8-10:

How does one get from one kingdom to the other (vv 1-7)?  By the unity of grace, faith and works (vv 7-9).  Not that these are equal, for grace is uncreated and infinite, our faith is limited and can grow, and good works flow out of authentic faith.  Works cannot earn us this great treasure—it is a pure gift—but those who receive this gift do good.  We are not saved by good works, but for good works (v. 10)

There is also a page describing the Orthodox view on “‘Works’ in Paul’s Writing”: which distinguishes between “dead works” [works of evil (murder, adultery…) and works—even good—but done for the wrong reason (to gain praise, prestige …)] and “living works”—deeds good within themselves and done for the sole good purpose: to glorify God.  [This is a highly edited summary.]

There are no comments on Titus 3:3-8 relevant to this thread.

The various comments on Romans 4 make it clear that “Abraham became righteous in the sight of God not through works—human actions designed to attain righteousness—but through faith.”

I wonder, as an Orthodox [once Anglican] priest said on a thread on another BB, whether the “either / or” distinction generally prevalent in Western Protestantism [Scripture OR Tradition; Jesus OR Mary; Faith OR Works] contributes to a belief that the Catholics or Orthodox may favour one over the other, where—as far as I can see—they try and take both.  Does this make sense?  For I think what I’ve written above closely corresponds to your interpretation, Rowen – but perhaps the Orthodox push the “Faith & Works” argument where Protestants (generally, and I hate to generalise, and I mean no offence) would generally say “It must be faith”?  Am I making sense?

Thanks for your posts.  I hope I have understood you.

God bless,
Ian.

Robert,
(with regards to your first post)

The quote from Calvin is a good one.  I have also heard (briefly) the “gate in the fence” imagery—what is your view on it?

Your take on Matthew 7 rings true to me [and I agree it is scary—but I think we need to be shocked into ensuring we are on the right path at various time].

Thanks for your post: it was a great help in understanding a difficult passage.

God bless,
Ian.

David of the Cute Baby ;-) & Robert (with regards to your reply to David),

This is where my brain gets muddled.  I think I’ll need to read over those posts a few more times. ;-) I think I agree with Robert when he wrote:

I suppose in a very real way it chats about false religion in the sense of people simply going thru the motions, & not persevering to the end. Yet the context is being ready for Jesus to come back

That is how I have read Chapter 25: people going through the motions will have their faith shown for what it is [another scary prospect for me at times: how generous / committed am I?]

The Orthodox Study Bible seems to suggest [and I say “suggest” carefully, I’ll probably need to speak to my priest (along with 2001 other questions I have ;-) - I’m working through a video series on the Nicene Creed and I’m up to “redemption") about it on Sunday] that, while salvation may not be in doubt, there is some measure of judgement.

Again: thanks.  I’m sorry I’m a bit thick and require more time to digest your wise words.  Thanks for the springboard from which to leap into further study from.

God bless,
Ian.

Phew—I’m actually getting through these! ;-)

Jason,

I’d say you are part of the “cream”. ;-)

Definitely agree with the “response” interpretation.

[quote author="Jason"] I’ve started some theological reflection, with the help of others, as a part of my Christian walk, and theologically I feel a bit like I’ve donned the floaties and I’ve dived in the deep-end of the pool, but with God’s help it’s an enjoyable learning curve.

Amen.  I feel very simple at times here, but each post helps me to grow in the love and knowledge of God, and helps me “work out [my] salvation with fear and trembling”.

Thanks all.  God bless,
Ian.

Hello Ian,

I feel I have just missed the boat on this thread, and I don’t have any good milk jokes. My unoriginal take on your initial question is that:

As the body without spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26

pretty much sums it all up. Sometime it can feel that in Protestant churches we are very caught up in the believe and have faith and you will be saved formula. While this is true, the Bible is very big on repentance - changing your life - and if your life isn’t changed where is the evidence of your faith? Can’t have one without the other, as Rowan and Robert point out.

*******************

I am encouraged to find that I am not the only one who thinks that some parts of the Bible are:

lightly glossed over.

Ian,

I had my beliefs/understanding on this very issue tested in a way I never imagined over a year ago. I sincerely hope that what I now share with you will be of help.

You may remember from some of my posts on other threads that my dad died at home with his family caring for him in the last 3 weeks of his life. My dad believed in God but did not have a saving faith, it was purely head knowledge.

Fully aware of this I shared the New Testament account of the 2 criminals who were crucified either side of Jesus. Two Ways To Live never connected with my dad and there was no point using it in his incapacitated state

Luke 23:40-43 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?  We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. “ Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

For me this story gave me such a hope for my father’s salvation. If I really believed that dad’s salvation rested on his ability to respond to Jesus by doing good works or the good deeds God had prepared for him before the creation of the world then there was no point sharing THIS gospel because it offered no hope & ultimately condemned him. Also what did this say about God?

So trusting that salvation rested in what Jesus has already done for my dad, I shared the Luke passage. I said to dad that he was in the same position as the 2 criminals, death was immenent, there was no time for PROOF of a saved life eg doing good deeds, living a prayerful life. Which response did he want to follow? For him the doing came in accepting Jesus’ offer of eternal life and nothing else. I still don’t know if dad took up Jesus’ offer as he lost the ability and the strength to talk moments later.

I do believe that those of us who submit to Jesus as Lord and enjoy many years ahead have the wonderful privilege of having His lordship, His love and amazing grace change us so we become doers as David Ould rightly pointed out

James Chapter 2:18b refers to: Show me your faith without deeds and I will show you my faith by what I do.

Earlier on in the letter, James 1:22-25, refers to: Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. …

One of the good deeds God had prepared for me before creation itself was to share the wonderful news about Jesus with my dying father. What an honour and a privilege.

[quote author="Angela Crittle"]

I do believe that those of us who submit to Jesus as Lord and enjoy many years ahead have the wonderful privilege of having His lordship, His love and amazing grace change us so we become doers as David Ould rightly pointed out

James Chapter 2:18b refers to: Show me your faith without deeds and I will show you my faith by what I do.

Earlier on in the letter, James 1:22-25, refers to: Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. …

One of the good deeds God had prepared for me before creation itself was to share the wonderful news about Jesus with my dying father. What an honour and a privilege.

Very kind of you to quote me as an authority!!

I am enjoying listening to Nathan Tasker at the moment. His song currently playlisted on 103.2 goes like this:

I come just as I am, yet here’s the mystery;
Though I can come without changing, your love changes me.

I second Jason in thanking you for sharing so personally Angela.

God bless,
Ian.

I wonder, as an Orthodox [once Anglican] priest said on a thread on another BB, whether the “either / or” distinction generally prevalent in Western Protestantism [Scripture OR Tradition; Jesus OR Mary; Faith OR Works] contributes to a belief that the Catholics or Orthodox may favour one over the other, where—as far as I can see—they try and take both. Does this make sense? For I think what I’ve written above closely corresponds to your interpretation, Rowen – but perhaps the Orthodox push the “Faith & Works” argument where Protestants (generally, and I hate to generalise, and I mean no offence) would generally say “It must be faith”? Am I making sense?

This has been my observation too, Ian. Grace, faith, works are an inseparable triad: emphasis of one over the others can lead to error.

Nunc,

You wrote

Quote:
I wonder, as an Orthodox [once Anglican] priest said on a thread on another BB, whether the “either / or” distinction generally prevalent in Western Protestantism [Scripture OR Tradition; Jesus OR Mary; Faith OR Works] contributes to a belief that the Catholics or Orthodox may favour one over the other, where—as far as I can see—they try and take both. Does this make sense? For I think what I’ve written above closely corresponds to your interpretation, Rowen – but perhaps the Orthodox push the “Faith & Works” argument where Protestants (generally, and I hate to generalise, and I mean no offence) would generally say “It must be faith”? Am I making sense?

This has been my observation too, Ian. Grace, faith, works are an inseparable triad: emphasis of one over the others can lead to error.

Could you clarify what you mean by “emphasis of one over the others can lead to error” please? I’ve made a couple of guesses but that’s all they are guesswork.

thanks
angela