[quote author="Samantha Young"]I am curious, have you ever had a similar question in an exam or assignment asking you to consider the same question based on the whole New Testament?

Nope.

Rod

[quote author="Samantha Young"]

Shouldn’t we pay more attention to the words of Jesus? I am very reluctant to base my understanding of what God does based on the Book of Proverbs, when Jesus’ attitude is in such contrast. Isn’t that reasonable?

Hmm. Do you actually mean to say “...when Jesus’ attitude is in such contradiction”? - because you seem to be suggesting more than a Jesus/Proverbs contrast.

[quote author="Samantha Young"]Why when Jesus says,

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come follow me.”

When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Matthew 19:16-22

don’t you say it is a clear example of what followers of Jesus should do?

Well, if I were to do that, what do you think I should do with the application of Mt 12:15-16

Jesus, aware of this, withdrew from there. And many followed him, and he healed them all and ordered them not to make him known.

Would you say this is a clear anti-evangelism verse, and if not, why not?

(Sunday: By the way, for your encouragement, the preacher at church this am had this to say having quoted Brian Houston’s book You need more money: “The prosperity gospel is a made up distorted version of the Bible which is designed to please our Western sinfulness”. Amen to that.

He also said that our blessings are in heaven, and we’re not to think of the promises as earthly and material in nature. He didn’t mention Prov 3:9-10, but.)

[quote author="Craig Bennett"]I think there is a huge difference between knowing some one and knowing about some one - even God.

For instance I can tell you a lot about the Queen of England

Howdy Craig

3 probs with comparing Her Majesty the Queen of Australia with God (there are more)

[list]First, we don’t hate the Queen of England with a perfect hatred, desiring to suppress all knowledge of her because of our twisted, sinful perversity. (Rom 1:18-20).

Second, Good Queen Bess II hasn’t judged us by sending us a strong delusion so that we may believe what is false. (2 Thess 2:11)

Third, you can’t say of Her Madge: “In her we live and move and have our being”; or “For we are indeed her offspring.” (Acts 17:28)[/list:u]

All three points have a significant bearing on the question.

G’day Gordon,

Peter uses the words knowledge in the same way I used the words for knowing the queen. He uses firstly the greek word “epignosis” relational knowledge - he then uses the greek word “Gnosis” which is intellectual knowledge. He says we are to add to our relational knowledge of Christ intellectual knowledge which if we do it will keep our faith from being ineffectual - there is a big difference between knowing God and knowing about God.

craig

[quote author="Craig Bennett"]Peter uses the words knowledge in the same way I used the words for knowing the queen. He uses firstly the greek word “epignosis” relational knowledge - he then uses the greek word “Gnosis” which is intellectual knowledge.

I doubt this is a valid distinction. γνωσις gnosis is the “generic” word for knowledge in the NT, it does not overly define the knowledge it speaks of, that must be determined by context. It certainly cannot be reduced to “intellectual knowledge.”

The significance of Peter’s use of επιγνωσις epignosis is debated. It is likely just used synonymously (compare 2Pet 1:2 and 2Pet 3:18 which essentially say the same thing but the first uses επιγνωσις while the second uses γνωσις). In fact, επιγνωσις is used in at least one classical reference to refer to scientific theory (hardly what most would call “relational knowledge").

[quote author="Gordon Cheng"][quote author="Craig Bennett"]I think there is a huge difference between knowing some one and knowing about some one - even God.

For instance I can tell you a lot about the Queen of England

Howdy Craig

3 probs with comparing Her Majesty the Queen of Australia with God (there are more)

[list]First, we don’t hate the Queen of England with a perfect hatred, desiring to suppress all knowledge of her because of our twisted, sinful perversity. (Rom 1:18-20).

Second, Good Queen Bess II hasn’t judged us by sending us a strong delusion so that we may believe what is false. (2 Thess 2:11)

Third, you can’t say of Her Madge: “In her we live and move and have our being”; or “For we are indeed her offspring.” (Acts 17:28)[/list:u]

All three points have a significant bearing on the question.

On the contrary, Gordo.

In 3 steps you’ve moved from “queen” through “bess” and on to “madge”.
Treason of the highest order, if you ask me.

Your loyal and obedient fellow subject

David

Gordon,

Hey, with a smile, is that fair answering a question with another? But I’ll have a go at answering it for you. Looking at Matthew 12:15-16, and there are more examples of Jesus talking that way in Marks Gospel, so many that I once read that Mark has been referred to as “The Secret Gospel.” (Of course, I am not referring to unchristian Gnostic interpretations - just that Jesus talked as though he wanted to keep his actions secret, for a while.)

My understanding, and I cannot locate the book where I first read it, is that for Jesus to fulfil his ministry he needed time to accomplish certain actions and so the passages where Jesus performs a healing and says don’t tell anyone come from that time of his ministry. Otherwise too much attention would have got in the way of the unfolding of his work.

Sounds like a reasonable understanding to me and makes enough sense, even though it may miss sound more profound reason. Anyway, that’s my answer, although I don’t think it directly addresses the point I am making and is just a distraction.

And no, I meant to use the word contrast and not contradiction. I am not a sceptic who scours the Bible looking for so called contradictions, so I can then say that the Bible is not inspired and trustworthy. But I am sure you weren’t implying that. I take the Bible very seriously and want to understand how to apply the words of our Lord Jesus Christ to today.

My point is and always has been, that whether someone declares themselves an evangelical, liberal or other, there is still the emphasis of those parts of the Bible that suit the readers beliefs, and a tendency to tread lightly or ignore those that don’t fit the currently acceptable “Truth”.

I appreciate the comments made in this thread by those thinking about the issues of rich and poor and wanting to apply the teachings of Jesus to their lives. But with obvious exceptions, there is also an undercurrent of “Well, Jesus’ words on this mean more than they appear.” or “That doesn’t apply to me”, or “Yes, but what about these verses.”

Isn’t it interesting, when Jesus teaches his disciples and the crowds how to pray (Matthew 6:9-13, Luke 11:2-4) we claim it as template for how we should all pray today. After Jesus tells one person, how to treat and who a neighbour is (Luke 10:29-37) it is great sermon material. If we believe in special healing gifts today we use Jesus’ words (Matthew 10:1) to justify them. When Jesus gives a warning and instruction on wealth (Luke 12:32-34) it is accepted as God’s wisdom for us.

Whoa, stop! Go back to that last one. There’s got to be more to that one than meets the eye. Let’s go looking for Bible verses that can counterbalance that. Jesus couldn’t intend it to apply to my church and me. It’s just too demanding.

I know someone will accuse me of a parody here, but that is how our response to the words of Jesus can appear. After reading through the teachings of Jesus, the concern of wealth, riches and the poor is a thread right through, not just a peripheral issue.

Now I am not saying that one’s attitude and action towards riches is the main measure of one’s standing before God, or that it is the central thrust of the Good News. I know it is about our relationship with God and how Jesus saves us from Sin (1 Peter 3:18). Yet, Jesus repeatedly says we must put his words into practice (Matthew 7:24, Luke 8:23).

If you choose to understand and interpret parts of Jesus’ teaching by emphasising other passages that is your choice, but to assert that evangelical Christians don’t avoid or dilute the more challenging demands of Jesus is hard to believe. Remember you originally asked:

Do you have a specific ‘worst case’ example or examples?

after I claimed:

Sometimes there appears to be a certain arbitrariness to what is clear, and what is not.

And I think many responses on this thread have shown that arbitrariness in action. We pick and choose.

I hear my evangelical brothers and sister’s judging others and wringing their hands for what they see as lack of respect for Biblical Authority. All the while claiming to have the best understanding of the Truth and the Gospel and then with a straight face and one hundred percent sincerity say the Bible is not used selectively. I don’t know whether to roll around laughing, or just feel sad.

*****************************

After an unusual amount of Internet activity late last week, my usage is back to more typical patterns, so I find it difficult to maintain regular and timely posts.

Hi Guys,
Funny that we say these things in such funny ways, and how a forum can be left on its own while I go off to a conference, only to see it back in the same spot, albeit after a few more posts…

Samantha, Just one Question…

When Jesus gives a warning and instruction on wealth (Luke 12:32-34) it is accepted as God’s wisdom for us.

Do you see Luke 12:32-34 in the context of the rest of Luke 12?
This is not a facetious question, but rather simply trying to show a point. Where the bible dictates conduct, as in this passage, it is actually not a broad brush “Thou shalt” type, but more usually, “God (is/has done/can)… so you should respond by...”
In this immediate context of the passage, it is made obvious that God looks after us, clothes us, and feeds us (from Luke 12:22-28), and then further, we are to then not be concerned about material things such as these (Luke 12:29-30) then told to seek the good of God’s Kingdom (Luke 12:31) and then move into what you quote where we are told that our earthly treasure will disappear, so we should make one in heaven.

This type of language is repeated so often in the bible, it would be a very big mistake to simply ignore it. However I dont think that ignore it is what happens.
True, some Christians may struggle with greed, and some may find it incredibly hard to actually trust God enough to relocate their treasures from earth to heaven, but that doesnt mean it isnt taken seriously.

The same can be said for sexual sin… No matter how convinced some people are that they should be waiting for marriage for the appropriate context for sexual expression, there is always the potential outcome that they will fail, and not live up to their own standards here, as the struggle between what is right to do and what is done, is lived out in each believers heart.  Just because some continue to struggle with inappropriate feelings would not be a valid reason to say that the church is not talking about it/applies a double standard to it.

And by the way, after all the electives talks and seminars, I can honestly say that even Campus Bible Study, that great big monolithic body of student evangelicalism talked about both these issues at their Mid Year Conference. :P
More than that even the jokingly referred to “Gospel according to St Matthias” which has been around for at least the years I have been in CBS is very clear, you dont need material possessions, you should be doing mission and building God’s kingdom with all that you have.

After reflecting a bit, it seems that to argue a blind spot here, is not fair. It is probably accurate to say that some may see (rightly or wrongly) that they actually are building a treasure in heaven, by giving generously, of their time, their finances, and their faith to God, is counter-cultural in exactly the way that Luke 12 is talking about it being.

Hi Samantha

Can I ask something? After 100+ posts on this thread I have finally realised something that I’m sure many have already seen. (So perhaps you have answered this already ...)

This is what I realised: there are big explanations, and little explanations.

Big explanation: that evangelicals are largely ‘arbitrary’ and ‘selective’ in use of the Bible. (Your terms.) This would a systemic problem or failure, endemic to the range of churches you are considering.

Little explanation: that evangelicals are largely trying to read the whole Bible, and that differences in these matters are of emphasis. There are and have been errors, but deliberate/systemic distortion is not the norm.

Is this a fair assessment? (Or do I need to wait another 100 posts!?)

[quote author="Chris Little"]
Little explanation: that evangelicals are largely trying to read the whole Bible, and that differences in these matters are of emphasis. There are and have been errors, but deliberate/systemic distortion is not the norm.

I tend to agree with Little Chris Little’s Little explanation on this (sorry Chris, don’t know how tall you are). I don’t want to say understanding the Bible is difficult, ‘cause I don’t believe it is; I do want to say that it is one of those processes which require care — like cleaning a large room with a lot of furniture. Mistakes will be made, and us talking about it on forums like this and who knows? even in church and bible studies (!) is part of the process of helping each other to get it right.

Now sure, perhaps I won’t be as optimistic as Chris because sin is so deceptive, and even Christians sin, and sometimes they will be more interested in self-justification in a problem area, than they will be in listening to the Bible’s (God’s) message.

But essentially, the danger of suggesting deliberate/systemic distortion over a long period of time is the danger of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, who is at work in His people. [BTW, I’m not suggesting you have fallen into this Samantha. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not a term I want to throw around lightly or accuse others of — Mk 3:29]

And I do think this forum alone has thrown up more than enough evidence that there are evangelicals in many places who are struggling with, and genuinely trying to address, the problems associated with greed and materialism.

Hi Guys,

Thanks all for your comments. I can see your points, and Chris there won’t be another hundred posts on this thread at least not from me. Just a few closing responses to some recent quotes.

the danger of suggesting deliberate/systemic distortion over a long period of time is the danger of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit

My view is that it is an unconscious tendency to avoid the demanding sayings of Jesus. If I have offended anyone by accusing him or her of deliberate distortion I apologise. As these are concerns I am passionate about perhaps my language is too strong at times. It’s just that I feel we are so immersed in a wealthy culture that we have to struggle to hear God’s voice.

And by the way, after all the electives talks and seminars, I can honestly say that even Campus Bible Study, that great big monolithic body of student evangelicalism talked about both these issues at their Mid Year Conference.

I have never thought that there aren’t Christians thinking about these issues. But students discussing problems at university is a long way from suburban Christian middle class (no offense intended) and actions that appear to reflect a, “I really do need that bigger house or promotion and am kept busy pursuing material comfort”.

And I do think this forum alone has thrown up more than enough evidence that there are evangelicals in many places who are struggling with, and genuinely trying to address, the problems associated with greed and materialism.

Not everyone reads publications from Matthias Media or goes to special conferences. Any comments made here are probably, “preaching to the converted.”

Do you see Luke 12:32-34 in the context of the rest of Luke 12?

Sure do. I don’t think I have ever said the teachings to avoid riches is a Law.

this would a systemic problem or failure, endemic to the range of churches you are considering.

Being widespread and institutional doesn’t make something right.

******************

Thanks again. You have given me some things to think about. I will now pray, seek guidance and reflect further.

Perhaps if anyone knows when a particular Sunday morning (evenings are too problematic for me) worship at a Sydney church is going to include some preaching on wealth in the context of Jesus’ teaching, they could let me know in a PM.

[quote author="Samantha Young"]Thanks again. You have given me some things to think about. I will now pray, seek guidance and reflect further.

Thanks for your input and challenges on this topic Samantha. It has got us all reflecting on the issue which has been great for me personally.

Rod

Yes, thanks Sam (seconding Rod). I’ve certainly been helped to revisit and rethink some questions about money.