[quote author="Gordon Cheng"]Indeed Mousa, what a fine thread this is! But perhaps there was a specific question you wanted to post here, or talk about?

There was a hopefully temporary slowdown because Owen and I came close to agreement and I had to pull out ;-) But I’m sure we could spark it up again. I certainly don’t think, for example, that the Lord YHWH and Allah are the same, as seems to have been suggested on another thread.[/quote

26-63
Then we revealed to Musa: Strike the sea with your staff. So it had cloven asunder, and each part was like a huge mound.

24-34
And certainly We have sent to you clear communications and a description of those who have passed away before you, and an admonition to those who guard (against evil).
On the other hand in some verses is talking about one person:
7-189
He it is Who created you from a single being, and of the same (kind) did He make his mate, that he might incline to her; so when he covers her she bears a light burden, then moves about with it; but when it grows heavy, they both call upon Allah, their Lord: If Thou givest us a good one, we shall certainly be of the grateful ones.
In such verses he is usually talking about some special actions, just like the creation of human.
You can follow this matter in Bible. Do note that these signs did not come for the people who are thinking about world and permanently are struggling by materialistic subject. But these are some signs for us to know that this book has sent by Jesus Christ himself.
Christ is coming
Mousa

[quote author="Joshua Bovis"]Cheryl,
If Christ were created then Christ could not be God.

excues me, I think that Cheryl is talking about the body of Christ.

Christ is ingenerate - there was never a time when Christ was not!

yes but he was born in a day from Mariam, in a body, just like the others.

Christ is coming
Mousa

Mousa,

My point is that God did not create Christ to be anything as Christ in uncreated. He is begotten not made.

You are rightn Mousa in saying that

he was born in a day from Mariam, in a body, just like the others

A huge difference this is.

I was just hoping that Cheryl would qualify her statements that’s all; as she seems to be stating that Christ was ‘created’ by God.

“Joshua Bovis”
however before his birth he was the ingenerate, eternal second person of the Godhead. Whereas every person before their birth did not exist.

Dear Joshua in Christ,
one important aspects of Jesus life, is that he is a human. a complete human and this is not embargo for him to be a complete God as well.
body is the conditions and limitations of human,
if Jesus were not in our world, I may ask my God in the last day, : “my limitations and conditions in a body made me do sins, I could not prevent it because I could not control myself”! and God would not have any reason to punish me for my sins.
but Jesus came just like me, and his body was as the same as me, but asked me to accept his gift to be similar to him, his gift was Holy Spirit, if I accept that I will be free of sins, then I have not anything to say and assert for unability in the last day to my God.
By this I mean, presence of Jesus Christ in our world, is important if only he was a human as me and you, not a different human.
Body is breading from body and Jesus is not exception in this subject, his body at the time of birth is came from his mother, flesh came from flesh. as my flesh came from my mother. ( if you are intrested we can have a talk about the Genetical inheritance of Jesus Christ and its different which can not effect on his human specifications). On the other hand our body have to be from our fathers and mothers and at the first time from the first human(Adam). But Jesus proved with his life, that a common human body with all his needs, can be fly to heaven (after purifications and examinations) and be a Holy Body if only have a Holy Spirit, and there is a gospel for all human in history, all of us can have the Holy Spirit!
As you see our body and Jesus body was created at the time that God made the first human.
But God is Spirit, and Jesus is not different in Spirit, and as you mentioned, he is begotten not made. His essence is God and eternal, and his body is made but also eternal. In this way only, we can believe that , he is prelibation who raised from deads.

6This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.John1(5-6)

he came by water as all of us. our emberiological development patterns shows that our early stages of development began from the water.
but blood is the reason of life after some days and stages in an emberio, in ordinary human circulation of blood shows that emberio has spirit, Jesus Christ came by Spirit before these stages. it means that he had Spirit before formation even before the One cell stage in the Marys womb. this make no difference in his flesh as a human, but a big different in his spiritual growth in Mary. his flesh at emberiological development stages was cleansed from the first step to the last holy breath of Jesus on Cross and also after his raised up toward God.
(you can see also Quran Mariam 16-35, & 67- & Aaale Imran 54-55)
Yours in Christ

Christ is coming

I have just read the first half of Colin Gunton’s “Father, Son and Holy Spirit: Toward A Fully Trinitarian Theology”.

The essays in the first half of the book have many mentions of economic eternal subordination of the Son. He also ties it to the Nicean “eternally begotten”. He is pretty convincing.

A great read. Recommended (so far!)

Hey, nice to see this thread revived! (Hi Wayne).

Are you going to post a summary of Gunton on your blog? (Hint Hint)

[quote author="Gordon Cheng"]Hey, nice to see this thread revived! (Hi Wayne).

Are you going to post a summary of Gunton on your blog? (Hint Hint)

I’m happily immersed over my head in the Trinity right now.

If I can emerge from this joyfully perplexed state, I plan to write some stuff on it. (at least do a list of choice Gunton quotes I have typed up!)

trinity

I’m preaching on John 14 this Sunday, and it is unambiguously trinitarian. Terrific passage to preach on!

Hi Richard. Still terrorising Blue Mountains Gazette readers?

G’day all.

I thought I would dig this thread up.

At college we have guest lecturer Veli Matti Kaekkainen who is a Fuller College lecturer and who wrote the book,

“The Holy Spirit in Ecumenical, International and Contextual Perspective”

If any one would like to hear him speak, he is doing so at the AOG College Hector Street Chester Hill NSW. Starting at 9am - 12:30pm morning tea supplied. I think there is a minimal cost.

Today he was mostly speaking about the Holy Spirit in the church through the ages, and is speaking about how the spirit moves through the church, sacraments, and the body. He touched on it a bit this morning and will expand more tommorrow about the Holy Spirit moving in the community of believers and how in the modern church we are individualistic in our Christianity and not community minded, as a body.

I am looking forward to tommorrows talk, and think his book is a great one to read.

Blessings craig b

A worthwhile thread, Gordo and I were discussing something a while back herein. Might be good to resurrect that discourse.

G’day,

I thought i would give a run down on Veli- Matti’s talk today.

He was speaking mostly on the Holy Spirits role in the church, and while he had a unapolegetic emphasise in regards to Pentecostalism, he was being critical of the level of theological imput of the Pentecostal church.

He was talking about the difference between the Spirits power and his presence, and that Pentecostals need to learn to know the spirits presence in all things, sacraments, community, liturgy etc, drawing on the vast experience of the catholic churches (not the RC) theological history.

He spoke a fair bit on community in that we are Christians in a community, not as a individual, but as a person. This was very interesting as I think for the most part through every denomination in the west, Christians are more individualistic rather than community minded and this needs to be challenged.

Blessings craig b