Amen to that, Martin

Mark Baddeley and Robert Doyle have collected other quotes from Athanasius which make a similar point:

see eg:
http://www.matthiasmedia.com.au/briefing/webextra/apr04_giles.html

And here’s something interesting from Augustine who also believes in the (concept of the) monarche of the Father (albeit not as consistently as the Cappadocians)

“For the Father is greater than I;"(1) and, “The head of the woman is the man, the Head of the man is Christ, and the Head of Christ is God;"(2) and, “Then shall He Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him;"(3) and, “I go to my Father and your Father, my God and your God,"(4) together with some others of like tenor. Now all these have had a place given them, [certainly] not with the object of signifying an inequality of nature and substance;…But these statements have had a place given them, partly with a view to that administration of His assumption of human nature (administrationem suscepti hominis), in accordance with which it is said that “He emptied Himself:” not that that Wisdom was changed, since it is absolutely unchangeable; but that it was His will to make Himself known in such humble fashion to men. Partly then, I repeat, it is with a view to this administration that those things have been thus written which the heretics make the ground of their false allegations; and partly it was with a view to the consideration that the Son owes to the Father that which He is, — thereby also certainly owing this in particular to the Father, to wit, that He is equal to the same Father, or that He is His Peer (eidem Patri aequalis aut par est), whereas the Father owes whatsoever He is to no one. (De Fide et Symbolo 9.18 )

Contemplative Prayer on the Trinity

Perhaps contemplative prayer
can lead us to the most thoughtful
consideration of the Trinity:

Saint Patrick’s Breastplate

I bind unto myself today
The strong name of the Trinity:
By invocation of the same,
The Three in One and One in Three.

I bind this day to me for ever,
By power of faith, Christ’s incarnation,
His baptism in the Jordan River,
His death on the Cross for my salvation.
His bursting from the spiced tomb,
His riding up the heavenly way,
His coming at the day of doom
I bind unto myself today!

I bind unto myself today
The power of God to hold and lead:
His eye to watch, his might to stay,
His ear to hearken to my need;
The wisdom of my God to teach,
His hand to guide, his shield to ward;
The Word of God to give me speech,
His heavenly host to be my guard!

Christ be with me, Christ within me,
Christ behind me, Christ before me,
Christ beside me, Christ to win me,
Christ to comfort and restore me.
Christ beneath me, Christ above me,
Christ in quiet, Christ in danger,
Christ in hearts of all that love me,
Christ in mouth of friend and stranger.

I bind unto myself the name,
The strong name of the Trinity:
By invocation of the same,
The Three in One and One in three;
Of whom all nature hath creation,
Praise to the Lord of my salvation –
Salvation is of Christ the Lord!  Amen.

Something like the trinity is difficult even for theologians to understand.

I am no theologian, but I have always just understood it as being three in one and one in three.

A complete equality.

yes, absolutely.....but

I agree with what you say about perfect equality. But equality is a little slippery isn’t it? For example we might agree with the US Constitution that all [people] are created equal. But does this mean;

- all people are equally smart?
- all people are equally virtuous?
- that we should pick leaders by random ballot?
- that I am being prejudiced to lavish unequal attention to my own children?

When we say “equality” we need to say “equal as to...” There are different kinds of equality:

1. substantial (all people are equally in the image of God so cf Gen 9:6)
2. accidental (we are as smart as each other)
3. relative (children should honour their parents more than other’s parents)

The members of the Trinity are perfectly substantially equal. They are not relatively equal. (You’ll have to ask Augustine and Aquinas about how accidents apply to God)

The origins of a belief in:

Subordination of the Divine Persons

can be traced back to misinterpretations of the writings of Origen of Alexandria (185-232) which were refuted by early orthodox writers and are sometimes referred to as Origenism. 

A picture is worth a thousdand words!  Perhaps it is better to consider some of the early Greek Icons of the trinity.  I remember seeing some in an Anglican Fransican Monastery, many years ago as a teenager. 

The mystery of the Trinity is much easier to contemplate through prayer with the aid of seeing an early Greek Icon, than through words.

People say that about Origen...

But I’m not so sure. Certainly Origen is an important figure in the formalisation of the idea that the Son is derived from the Father but the idea was also there in the Logos and Wisdom traditions of the apologists.

And of course it’s in the Bible. Read John 5. You will find more derived/mediated equality than you can shake a stick at. Read Acts 4:30, 1Cor 15:28; Rev 1:1,6 etc etc. There is subordination in the Bible’s picture of the ascended Christ as surely as it in the incarnation.

But I will send out the Matt-signal on your Origen point because I’m really out of gamut here…

In the mean time, could you define what you mean by subordination here? It means many things in this debate…

Julian of Norwich’s A Revelation of Love (c. 1342-c. 1413) English mystic

Julian presents a divinity whose chief characteristics are protecting, nurturing, and sustaining.

Extract from chapter 54:
God is God, and our substance is a creture in God; for the almyty truth of the Trinite is our fader, for he made us and kepith us in him: and depe wisdam of the Trinite is our moder in whom we arn al beclosid; the hey goddnes of the Trinite is our lord and in him we aren beclosid and he in us.

Much that is written about the Trinity (like the above) transcends our reason.

[quote author="Martin Murray"]Julian of Norwich’s A Revelation of Love (c. 1342-c. 1413) English mystic

Julian presents a divinity whose chief characteristics are protecting, nurturing, and sustaining.

...

Much that is written about the Trinity (like the above) transcends our reason.

I don’t think I’m the only one that thinks that stuff such as that quoted from Julian transcend our reason not because there is a deep mystery in the Trinity but because they don’t really bear much resemblance to scripture.

Yes, Deut 29:29.
God has revealed himself in Christ - the Trinity is now partially within the province of revelation. I guess the trick is to not retreat into mysticism or speculate beyond God’s Word.

what’s a “fader” - di don’t dunderstand dat dold dalk

The quote from Mother Julian of Norwich is written in 14th century English.

What does ‘fader’ and ‘moder’ mean?  Father and Mother.

The Trinity is one of the central mysteries of the Christian faith.  The foundations for the Christian concept of mystery can be located in these texts:  I Cor., ii. Shorter passages are especially Eph., iii, 4-9; Col., i, 26-27; Matt., xi, 25-27; John i 17-18.

A mystery of the Christian faith is a truth whose existence or possibility can not be discovered by human enquiry alone, and whose essence can only be expressed by the finite mind in terms of analogy. 

There are many ecumenical documents such as those with the Baptists or Roman Christians that express our shared Christian view on such mysteries.  It is a tragedy when Christians disagree on matters so central to our faith.  Much better to look for common ground than to search for differences or exceptions don’t you think?

Are you saying those who disagree are wrong?

btw isn’t 1Cor 2 saying that the mystery appears to those without the Spirit whereas those with the Spirit have received revelation? Read 1Cor 2:12-15 again.

When Christians disagree about the meaning of the mystery of the Trinity, we as Anglicans have an authoritative creed to turn to, located at the back of the Book of Common Prayer and written by St. Athanasius of Alexandria (295-373).

I often wondered why it was included in the back of the old prayer book considering it was never read aloud at any services that I can remember.  Now I know.  For times like these. 

Why revive an ancient controversy that was settled and agreed to by the entire church in the 4th century?  The explanations given by St. Athanasius are good enough for me, even 1,700 years later.  And I would hope it is good enough for all Anglicans no matter which part of Australia (or the world) they come from. 

Let us not forget that Jesus prayed for our unity on the night before he was betrayed.

I referred to the following verses simply to establish that ‘mystery’ is a Christian concept - nothing more, nothing less.

The full text of those scripture verses establishing the concept of ‘mystery’ as Christian:

A reading from the first letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians (2:1)

1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the mystery* about God. 
[But this word is only used in some manuscripts in this verse here, so perhaps better to consider the other verses where it is used.]

A reading from the letter of St. Paul to the Ephesians (3:4-10)

4In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
7I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

A reading from the letter of St. Paul to the Colossians (1:26-27)

26the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. 27To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

A reading from the Holy Gospel according to St. Matthew (11: 25-30)

25At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

A reading from the Holy Gospel according to St. John (1:17-18)

17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

Well it seems we agree that there are mysteries concerning God and that there are solutions to mysteries (though I think it’s the Bible, you seem to think it’s the Quicunque and the fathers).

So what bearing does the issue of mystery have on this topic? All we are doing is disagreeing on what the (so called) Athanasian creed is talking about.

btw - do you believe the first line of the Athanasian creed? If you do, and you think people like me are contravening the AC with our views on the Trinity then you should come out plainly and say that we are not saved and not Christians. To do any less would be a false tolerance - not to say very unloving since our eternal destiny is at stake.

[quote author="Martin Murray"]When Christians disagree about the meaning of the mystery of the Trinity, we as Anglicans have an authoritative creed to turn to, located at the back of the Book of Common Prayer and written by St. Athanasius of Alexandria (295-373).

I often wondered why it was included in the back of the old prayer book considering it was never read aloud at any services that I can remember.  Now I know.  For times like these.

You’re right, Martin. The Athanasian Creed isn’t said much in Church, but it’s meant to be said several times a year.

In the Book of Common Prayer (1662) the “Confession of our Christian Faith”, commonly called the “Creed of St Athanasias” appears between the The Order for Evening Prayer and The Litany. Here’s what the rubric says:

Upon these Feasts; Christmas Day, the Epiphany, Saint Matthias, Easter Day, Ascension Day, Whitsunday, Saint John Baptist, Saint James, Saint Bartholemew, Saint Matthew, Saint Simon and Saint Jude, Saint Andrew, and upon Trinity Sunday, shall be sung or said at Morning Prayer, instead of the Apostles’ Creed, this Confession of our Christian Faith, commonly called the Creed of Saint Athanasias, by the Minister and people standing.

That means every Anglican minister officiating at Morning Prayer should have sung or said it today!!  (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)

One of the interesting points about the creeds is that their names tells us who probably didn’t write them.

The Apostles’ Creed was not written by the apostles (some scholars claim it represents only the baptismal confession of the Church of Southern Gaul, dating at earliest from the second half of the fifth century), the current form of the Nicene Creed was not accepted in its present form (without the filioque) until the Council of Chalcedonnot in 451, and the Anthanasian Creed is more likely to have been written by Ambrose, Bishop of Milan than Athanasias.

I guess the substance is more important than the authorship.

Sam

I note that you prayed “Amen!” in affirmation to St. Athanasius of Alexandria’s (295-373) first letter to Serapion, 28-30.

If we can all pray thus (whether in Sydney, Perth or the People’s Republic of China in my case - or anywhere else where you might be), then we (along with Christian faithful throughout the ages) are in agreement and upholding the ‘ancient tradition and the doctrine and the faith of the Catholic Church, which, as we know, the Lord handed down, the apostles preached and the fathers preserved.’

Beyond that I am a believer in ‘Judge not and you shall not be judged’.

Happy Pentecost this week and Happy Trinity Sunday for next week.