Q.1 The question I asked is, who is it that the “FM’s"are praying to?

A. 1 As religion is left to the individual freemason, I can truly say that when I pray I am praying to the God of Abraham. I can’t answer on behalf of other freemasons.

Q.2 Who is it who leads this service?

A.2 Depends on where the service is taking place.  Most of the masonic involvement that I have seen in an Anglican rite of burial has been led by the minister.

Q. 3 What exactly is being said at this ceremony?

A. 3 I am not sure - there are many different texts that can be used - I’ll investigate some more for you.

q. 4 Who makes up the theology behind this ceremony?

A. 4 There is no theology behind a masonic ceremony as freemasonry is not a religion.

Q.5 Contemplative why if freemasonry is not a religious body, does each lodge have a chaplain

A. 5 Like other non religion organisations eg. Police Force, Armed Services, Hospitals etc, a Chaplain performs a function.

Q. 6 What exactly type of spiritual comfort can the chaplain give if they are not allowed to preach the Gospel?

A.6 Why would it worry you so, as you seem to know that there is no preaching at a Lodge Meeting.  I suppose I can understand that you might confuse a Lodge Meeting with some forms of Anglican Meetings (as some fundamentalists call anglican services - - in the style of St Matthais Centennial Park) Personally, I would prefer if some Ministers of the Anglican Church did not preach at me, rather, to concentrate their efforts in devotion to the Blessed Sacrament.

Q. 7 What exactly is the role of the chaplain?

A. 7 In my experience, the Chaplain reads a few lines from the Bible.  There are no other sacramental or sacerdotal functions performed that I am aware of.  Would you rather that there were no readings of Scriptures in a Lodge meeting????

Q. 8 Why do they call the “Most worshipful master” just that?

A.8 If you think of where freemasonry has come from - post reformation England, then you would realise that the use of language was importatnt in previous times to indicate a station.  Just like as we have the Post Master, or the Master of a Ship, Cellar Master, Head Master etc It denotes a position.

So… the term worshipful has a history from a few accounts - back in the days when there was heavy shipping trade in the docks of england - it was common for the Harbour Master to pronounce that when a ship came in it was a “Worthy Ship Full”. 

Let us consider this, the Parliament of Australia, which, if we are to follow your understanding of what constitutes a religion, must also be a religion - due to the fact that there are prayers and readings of scripture, rituals performed (have you ever seen an Opening of Parliament???). I’m sure that if I search hard enough you would probably even find a Parliamentary Chaplain!  So the members are called “Honourable” - - now - we know that most politicians are simply not that.  How do you explain that, which at first sight, appears to be an allegory?

Q.9 What sort of worship is he leading?
A.9 None that I have witnessed - what sort of honour does a politician lead???

Statement 1. I hope this clears up the original question and gives some more food for thought.

Response:  Yes, thanks for your questions. It is always a pleasure to assist inquring minds.  Always happy to share the lamp of knowledge.

Statement 2. craig...I can not understand why a group of people that uses religious terms, uses religious titles can not be a religion?

Response 2:  Don’t let the little things in life get you so worked up. Are you on a search for further light? 

Contemplative...I don’t understand why a group of people attempt to impose a fundamentalist literal perspective of Christianity on other Christians either.  Please explain??

Sorry… I forgot to ask again - - - have you found your book on Masonic Sacraments yet???

Re: Are Freemasonry and Christianity compatible?

Are Freemasonry and Christianity compatible?  NO!!!
JD

Thanks for stopping by and providing us with that input on the discussion.

freemasonry

Jesus Christ said that if you are not for him, you are against him.

Doesn’t this mean that an organisation like freemasonry, which tries to be religiously neutral yet uses religious terminology and ritual, is in the end against Jesus? If, as Contemplative has argued very cogently, masonry isn’t FOR anyone in particular, then is that not opening the door to Satanic deception?

I know of Christians who have ministries to the victims of ritual abuse, including Satanic rituals, who are adamant that the higher levels of masonry are actively involved in Satanism.

There is no doubt that ordinary masons do good works and are no threat to society. But the system in which they operate, by promoting good works as the ultimate virtue, therefore are a denial of the grace of God and the salvation of Christ alone.  The system of masonry is extremely dangerous and Christians should tread extremely carefully in their involvement with an organistion like that.

Boys, it is me?  Or has this thread turned nasty?
Not only that, it has largely turned into a slugging match between two contestants.
Friends, I know that both of you feel strongly about this issue, but at points you are playing the man.
Lets tone it down… or drop the thread.
I am not being educated or edified by this.

Scott you said,

Not only that, it has largely turned into a slugging match between two contestants.

If it appears that way, I am sorry. I have not intended to be unedifying, just trying to find out what happens in “FM”

Contemplative, If I have been rude to you, I apologise, I haven’t personally taken this discussion as a slug fest, though I can think of why it may appear to be so to onreaders.

I am happy to continue if you are happy to answer my questions and vice versa.

Scott, not sure what you exactly mean by this term?

but at points you are playing the man.

craig

Craig,
Thanks for your graciousness.

by

playing the man

I mean that some of the discussion seems to have turned quite personal, particularly a couple of entries recently.  I’m glad of the discussion of this topic, but I would prefer it without the personal slights that seem to be being generated.

Scott, I think the discussion so far has been fine. Craig seems genuinely curious, and Contemplative seems knowledgable about Freemasonry and is happy to answer questions.

Scott I don’t want to discourage you, or anyone else, from asking people to get discussions back on track - its much better that people call it as they see it when they see it - but please be specific if you feel someone is being unecessarily personal in their comments. People normally skip to the end of these long threads, and if they see some general comments about people being personal or nasty without any example of who/where/why then they might get the wrong idea about those involved, or jump to conclusions, which would be unfair.

Cheers,
Luke

Sorry, I have been away on retreat for the past week - so I have not had a chance of checking in on the forums.

I have taken no offence from anything said in this forum. Indeed, I find the questions are probably beneficial for a greater understanding of opinions.

I thought I woul djust post here to bring the topic of is FM compatable with christianity so that the other topic is not railroaded.

craig

Russell, wrote on another topic,

Today Freemasons were asked to decide between the church and their lodges ! Tomorrow maybe it will be the Boy Scouts or Rotarians, Lions,or Toastmasters.
Who knows???? The Bigotry within the LEADERSHIP of this Christian group knows no bounds. What else could you call it other than intolerant bigotry! Anglicanism in NSW has been hijacked by an intolerant Bigoted group of individuals.
Take Freemasonry. I am a Freemason and a Christian. Freemasonry is NOT a religion. There is nothing whatsoever in being a Mason that conflicts with any member’s religious beliefs or practices, it promotes Unity and tolerance amongst all men and does not discriminate against any religion.
Mike , I say to you, turn the other cheek. We must keep on telling ourselves Christianity is all about Jesus and his life in HIS Ministry. He did not call his ministry by name. In the Bible the words Anglican, Church of England or Catholic do not even appear.
May God Bless you and do not let this group at the top of the Anglican Church in NSW offend you.
Russell Dobson
Blacktown. NSW.

Russell to quote you, shows exactly where FM goes wrong.

it promotes Unity and tolerance amongst all men and does not discriminate against any religion.

You are saying that all religion is equal before God, and in doing that deny the saving work of Jesus Christ and that non come to the father except though him.

In saying this you are denied by the rules of FM to evangelise your friends in FM to knowing the truth of Jesus Christ and in doing so if they don’t know him are cheerfully sending them on to hell.

In saying this you are following the teaching of FM and not what Jesus himself taught us, and if FM teaches any thing about God then it is theolising - that is teaching theology - and if it teaches theology then it is a religious body.

A true Christian can not worship God in the same meeting with a buddist, a muslim, a satanist, a hindu and say all of those people invovled are worshipping the true God.

P.S. Russell some time back my boss became a FM, through his father, I read the little book that taught the principles of FM and what he had to memorise to go through the initiation ceromony - it was in reading that and discussing it with another pastor, that is the content of that book - which taught a lot about God which is not compatable with a savin gknowledge of Christ Jesus.

You say your other non Christian FM brothers believe in God, Good remember as james said, not I But one of Christs disciples and his brother.

You believe in God, good, even the demons believe in God and tremble.

Believing in God is not enough, it is in having faith in the work of Christ Jesus and him cruxified that saves us. It is in having a personal relationship with God through Christ empowered by the Holy Spirit that we are saved.

craig

craig

Russell Dobson wrote:

Who knows???? The Bigotry within the LEADERSHIP of this Christian group knows no bounds. What else could you call it other than intolerant bigotry! Anglicanism in NSW has been hijacked by an intolerant Bigoted group of individuals.

As a member of Synod who voted in favour of the motion, I must admit nothing quite wins me over like being called names!! At least if we are intolerant bigots, you have shown yourself a model of charity and understanding, so thankyou for that. ;-)

I can’t recall exactly, but I don’t think this debate was really led by the Bishops, or anyone else who might be termed “Leadership” (unless perhaps you just mean the Synod as a whole). For me at least the memorable contributions were from the laypeople. Laypeople who had been involved or had family members involved in Freemasonry, speaking both for and against the motion.

What became very clear in the course of the debate is that Freemasonry speaks of God while disallowing speaking of Jesus Christ. No-one could refute that. For a Christian to agree to oaths of allegiance to an organisation where they are expressly disallowed to speak of Christ is deeply disappointing.

It also became clear that there are attempts by Freemasons to promote membership through Church connections. Yet it is disallowed to promote Christianity through Freemason connections. If that is not being ‘unequally yoked’ (2 Cor 6) I don’t know what is.

I’m sorry, brother, that you have been hurt by the motion.  But I don’t actually vote based on who I might offend. I vote based on what I believe to be the truth. And I believe every word of that motion to be true.

Your brother because of Jesus

Matt

Intolerant bigotry......

I do not back away from this, they are not names but real words with real meanings, words that I believe to be applicable in this instance.
Sorry I mixed Leadership up with Synod, I apoligise for this. I now point this statement at the majority of the Synod within the NSW Anglican Church.
It is true we are disallowed to speak of the Ministry of Jesus Christ within lodge, in fact we are disallowed from speaking about religion at all. We are not a religion. We are also disallowed from speaking on Politics. Just as in a court of law you do not speak of religion, but you still make an oath on a Volume of sacred law (i.e. Quran, Bible whatever the faith of the witness maybe).
Freemasonry can complement a religion, especially Christianity as it promotes Charity, brotherly love, strict morals, fidelity and tolerance (of both race and creed). Just as Rotarians do not discuss Jesus or Allah or Mohammed or Shiva in their meetings, nor do the Masons in the lodge room. We do not even discuss God. In the lodge room, when it comes to an appropriate time to speak of the supreme Being (in my case, as a Christian, God,my brother sitting beside me it maybe Allah or Ganesh) we then use the words Great Architect or Grand Geomitrician- symbolical and to pertain to the individual persons own deity.
We do respect others beliefs and we are tolerant of all religions, we do not apoligise for this. When you think that throughout history the many wars and the persecution that have been caused by religious bigotry, I think it would be a Great thing if mankind gave heed to the vision of Freemasonry that does allow for tolerance of another mans religion while not compromising his own.
The masonic ritual dates back hundreds of years, sometimes thousands of years, and to quote snippets, twist them around and throw them back at Masons on computer message boards, reminds me of the atheists picking out contradictions in the Bible, and they can be found.
By the way, it is not disallowed of a Mason to promote Christianity- where do you get all of this stuff from Matt? Granted, it would be in the lodge room while we were meeting, but not outside. I am a proud Christian and I would shout it from the roof tops.Thus, I am disapointed in the motion Matt even though I am not an Anglican, it must be doubly disapointing for the Freemasons whom are Anglican.
I am not a spokesman for the craft, but in my opinion, Our Lord Jesus would also be disapointed in the motion indeed.

G’day Russell, to allay our fears and our poor knowledge of freemasonary.

Can you tell me exactly what goes on in the very first initiation ceremony to become a freemason?, can you tell me exactly what oaths are said?

I can, it goes like this,

The grandpooh bahh or master or whatever says to the initate, “you were once in darkness, now you have come into the light of freemasonry.”

If a christian says this then he has denied the light of Christ.

Do you deny that a noose is tied around the iniates neck, he has a hood over his head, he has a dagger or a knife of somesort held to his throat and the iniate has to repeat a oath of allience with some form of blood penalty.

Will you tell us exactly what is said in this ceremonies.

Because it is here where you are guilty of denying Christ, it is here where you have denied him by making a oath instead of letting your yes be yes and your no be no.

Perhaps I am wrong, well I am a fairminded man, I am open to correction, please tell us exactly what is said to prove me wrong.

craig