Contemplative, I have just done some more research on the material you say that I use is out of date. You could be correct that those particular oaths are no longer said.
in 1826 Willaim Morgan signed a contract for a book which would reveal the secret signs, grips, and rituals of freemasonry, and was kdnapped and later found murdered by the local masons of New York, this led to mass resignation from the masons in the USA for a significant time.
The united states government made any masonic order within the USA to either dissolve it’self or to discard fore ever from it’s laws all oaths, penalties, secrets and as ridicules appendeges to them all mysteries and pagents.
So in the past these oaths have been taken to be meant very seriously.
I agree with you that perhaps I was using older material, but again I ask you - what are the vows and oaths that are taken today, and as far as it not being a religion, again why do they sing songs and pray within the temple to god,
and indeed why is the building called a temple and not just a hall?
and as to your remark via the local football club, they do not say you have to believe in god to join, they do not call their club house a temple, and they do not sing songs or hymms to god at their meetings nor do they pray, or say come join us, by being a good footballer or supporter you will get to heaven.
Freemasonry in essence calls it’s self above all other religions, by uniting all from other religions under it’s own religious teachings, there fore it is a religion.
craig..what is in darkness will be brought to light, and the light of the world is Christ Jesus and any one who says they are of the light but deny Christ as being the only way, is under the angel of light who is the father of true darkness.
Contemplative, I have just done some more research on the material you say that I use is out of date. You could be correct that those particular oaths are no longer said.
in 1826 Willaim Morgan signed a contract for a book which would reveal the secret signs, grips, and rituals of freemasonry, and was kdnapped and later found murdered by the local masons of New York, this led to mass resignation from the masons in the USA for a significant time.
The united states government made any masonic order within the USA to either dissolve it’self or to discard fore ever from it’s laws all oaths, penalties, secrets and as ridicules appendeges to them all mysteries and pagents.
So in the past these oaths have been taken to be meant very seriously.
I agree with you that perhaps I was using older material, but again I ask you - what are the vows and oaths that are taken today, and as far as it not being a religion, again why do they sing songs and pray within the temple to god,
and indeed why is the building called a temple and not just a hall?
and as to your remark via the local football club, they do not say you have to believe in god to join, they do not call their club house a temple, and they do not sing songs or hymms to god at their meetings nor do they pray, or say come join us, by being a good footballer or supporter you will get to heaven.
Freemasonry in essence calls it’s self above all other religions, by uniting all from other religions under it’s own religious teachings, there fore it is a religion.
craig..what is in darkness will be brought to light, and the light of the world is Christ Jesus and any one who says they are of the light but deny Christ as being the only way, is under the angel of light who is the father of true darkness.
Contemplative, I have just done some more research on the material you say that I use is out of date. You could be correct that those particular oaths are no longer said.
in 1826 Willaim Morgan signed a contract for a book which would reveal the secret signs, grips, and rituals of freemasonry, and was kdnapped and later found murdered by the local masons of New York, this led to mass resignation from the masons in the USA for a significant time.
The united states government made any masonic order within the USA to either dissolve it’self or to discard fore ever from it’s laws all oaths, penalties, secrets and as ridicules appendeges to them all mysteries and pagents.
So in the past these oaths have been taken to be meant very seriously.
I agree with you that perhaps I was using older material, but again I ask you - what are the vows and oaths that are taken today, and as far as it not being a religion, again why do they sing songs and pray within the temple to god,
and indeed why is the building called a temple and not just a hall?
and as to your remark via the local football club, they do not say you have to believe in god to join, they do not call their club house a temple, and they do not sing songs or hymms to god at their meetings nor do they pray, or say come join us, by being a good footballer or supporter you will get to heaven.
Freemasonry in essence calls it’s self above all other religions, by uniting all from other religions under it’s own religious teachings, there fore it is a religion.
craig..what is in darkness will be brought to light, and the light of the world is Christ Jesus and any one who says they are of the light but deny Christ as being the only way, is under the angel of light who is the father of true darkness.
Contemplative, if I am using out of date material, what are the vows that are currently said today?. if they are only allergorical and not meant to be taken literally, you can share them with us here.
This would be helpful Contemplative. It’s all well and good to say “no it isn’t” but what else do we have to go on? show us where we can find some detailed up to date info from Mason sources, because I can’t find it anywhere.
Because of the nature of the teachings of Freemasonry, it requires that candidates acknowledge a belief in a Supreme Being and the immortality of the soul. Otherwise, the ceremonies would be meaningless.
Masonic ideals are not set forth in written creeds. For the most part, the individual Mason must interpret the rituals for himself and come to whatever understanding will satisfy his own mind and conscience, allowing others to do likewise.
Masonic ideals are not set forth in written creeds. For the most part, the individual Mason must interpret the rituals for himself and come to whatever understanding will satisfy his own mind and conscience, allowing others to do likewise.
You say for the most part the individual masons must interpret the rules himself. - What about the parts that he doesn’t explain for himself, who explains that to him?
Why if it is not a religion or a religious body does it have installed - ordained is probably the more correct term a “Most Worshipfull Master” ?
You also wrote
Because of the nature of the teachings of Freemasonry, it requires that candidates acknowledge a belief in a Supreme Being
You admit then that freemasonry has teachings about a supreme being or God, if any body has set teachings about the nature of God then again this is a religious institution
Because of the nature of the teachings of Freemasonry, it requires that candidates acknowledge a belief in a Supreme Being and the immortality of the soul. Otherwise, the ceremonies would be meaningless.
You again say that freemasonry is not a religion or a religious organistation but you say the ceremonies would be meaningless without the individual believing in the immortality of the soul and a supreme being.
Why do individuals need to believe in a supreme being if it is not a religion or a religious institution?
Now what we need to know then are what does freemasonry teach about the nature of God or this called supreme being?, and how exactly do these ceremonies take place? As well as what is exactly said during the meetings?
The Christian God is the supreme being, so therefore, any suggestion or allowance that God is not God - or that God can be interpreted outside of the Christian framework- is false teaching and apostasy.
That said, I believe majority of men are in the lodge for fellowship and companionship, and don’t really give 2 hoots about the ceremonies etc et al. Which is a sad indictment on the church, who on a generalist whole, are more pro-women in programs than pro-men......except you Anglicans, where women aren’t allowed to do anything!! (wink wink nudge nudge - jost joking!!!!!).
Mike you have hit a nail on the head. Within the church in general there is a fear of men to take their masks off and show who they really are, but this comes from not knowing who they really are. If our identity is in Christ then our identiy comes from that and we can be real and authentic.
Though are we putting the cart before the horse, in the area I live there are few men who go to all the churches in the area compared to women, perhaps the reason why their are more women programs is that men in principle have passed the spiritual responsibilites of their familys on to their wives and sent their wives and kids to church.
One of the dislikes I have about freemasory is the secrecy of it all. if a man is truly Godly and if “FM” is truly a godly organisation why can’t the men share with theire wives, share with their children exactly what goes on there, what they actually believe as in the differece with the Christian faith is that there is nothing hidden, it is clearly seen and to be sahred by all.
As an aside, some years ago I went to the Katoomba mens convention where some 3000 men were in attendance, the speaker said “men, you need to get into groups and share and pray with each other” An oppurtune moment was lost, he should of then said “turn to each other and form a group and put it into practice” but he didn’t and the men I went with still haven’t.
craig...one for whos all for more true honest male fellowship.
For any one interested the links to this site provide interesting reading in what they do and don’t say.
It is clear however that there is religious instruction via the nature of God in the various different masonic degrees and lodges.
Contemplative why if freemasonry is not a religious body, does each lodge have a chaplain?
craig...The Bible is for all to see and read, Christianity is for all to recieve while freemasonry is very secretive and when it boils down to it , it is another form of gnosticism
Many anti-Masons try to “prove” that Freemasonry is a religion - and then, on that basis, condemn it as being a ‘false religion’. I have presented a case that Freemasonry is no more a religion than is football, or come to think about it golf, scouting, girl guides, or the RSL.
I can further understand that the arguments raised may leave you with further questions which you seem to want proved.
When you examines things common and different in religions, there is a short list of traits all share but which are unique to none thereby achieving a working, rather than literal, model of what religion is.
It is important to remember that this involves religion not spirituality, which for the most part, is a trait of being human.
Freemasonry, along with many other social groups, has some common elements with your understanding of literal christianity:
1. A profession of belief in a higher existence and/or being.
2. Group action which encases their belief system in symbolism and ritual.
3. Through the self-definitions of the above, the group proceeds in a “we-they” quasi political (encased in mysticism and/or spirituality) manner to promote and maintain their organisation.
Some say that it can reasonably be argued that all of these are true of Masonry. Similarly, however, they are also true of organisations like scouts, girl guides, Alcoholics Anonymous to name but a few.
So on the basis of this non-partisan, sociological model, Freemasonry more than fits and for these reasons, some could find it hard to see why Masonry is, in fact, not a religion.
Religions, however, do the following:
1. Practice sacerdotal functions
2. Teach Theology
3. Ordain Clergy
4. Define sin and salvation
5. Perform sacraments
6. Publish or specify a Holy Book
7. Describe or define the Deity
Freemasonry does none of these things - but religions do
I would presume, from a literal understanding of the bible that some would not also accept the ordaining of Women Priests in the Anglican Church as well.
Freemasonry allows the initiated to reflect on the great works of the Creator and which encourages his thoughtful circumspection.
I don’t really think that anything I can say or write to the contrary will even make the slightest difference to a literalist fundamentalist opinion. I can only be thankful that Sydney is a secular city where the views that some have expressed are among a vast spectrum of theological thought, not only here in Sydney, but in the Anglican Communion.
1. Practice sacerdotal functions
2. Teach Theology
3. Ordain Clergy
4. Define sin and salvation
5. Perform sacraments
6. Publish or specify a Holy Book
7. Describe or define the Deity
Freemasonry does none of these things - but religions do
I would like to reply to each of these 7 statements
1. I’m not sure what you mean by this?
2. Who said it is OK to bring different religions together and together worship the same creater or as put by “FM” Great architecht of the universe? This is theology in practice and cerainly not taught by Christianity.
3. You don’t ordain clergy, or call members clergy - but the same principle stands as there are initiation / induction / ordination ceremonies for those who take on positions of rank. such as worshipful master who leads the ceremonies, chaplains - by the way what exactly is the role of the chaplain in “FM” if they are not aloud to evangelise within “FM” how do they offer spiritual comfort?
4. Not all religions define sin and salvation, though “FM” teaches that to get to heaven we must live a pure life - is that not a salvation doctrine?
5.This is false, you have your own secret book of initiation, rites and ceremonies that at each level or degree you are aloud to only have access to those rites or sacraments that you have been initiated into, as well you have your own ceremony that is performed at the funreals of masons and this in it’self is sacramenta.l
6. publish or specify a Holy Book. Again as above point 5
7.But the diety has been defined and described as being the great archeitecht of the universe
Contemplative also wrote
It is important to remember that this involves religion not spirituality, which for the most part, is a trait of being human
You cannot seperate Christianity between spirituality and religion or religious. Christianity is totally spiritual, The act of forgiveness by God himself is totally spiritual, The fact that Christ died, ressurected and will come back again is totally spiritual, the fact that we must be born again is a spiritual act, not of human origen.
Contemplative you wrote in a previous posting.
You are really stuck in a literalist perspective Craig!
The Bible, especially what the gospels and the epistles say regarding Christs mission and salvation are to be taken literally for there is no other name by which mankind can be saved.
If the only prerequeset to join “FM” is that you must believe in a diety, and that all men from all religions can come and join together and worship the great archietecht of the universe together, whether or not each man takes on a different view of how they worship, they are inagreeance that each others path is the right path of salvation for them, and in doing so all men can come together in peace and show true love to each other.
What a load of dust coming from a country road. Christians are exhorted to share their faith with all of mankind, to teach the truth of Christ, that there is only one path to heaven and that is of Christ Jesus, and if any man sits back and watches another man from another religion worshsiping his god, and agrees with him that his path is correct for him, he has firstly denied Christ, and secondly has accented to allowing that man to go to hell.
By the way what hymmes are sung at your lodge, I know the psalm that goes “where brethren in unity dwell, commands a blessing” why pick bits and pieces out of the Bible, why not embrace the whole Bible for what it is “Gods word to mankind”
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. He was with God in the beginning, through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made, in him was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it....he was in the world and though the world did not recognise him...yet to all who believed in his name he gave the right to become children of God, Children born not of natural descent nor of human decision ..but born of GOD, the word became flesh and made his dwelling amongst us.
craig...This scripture is to be taken litrerally for it is the literal truth.`
1A. Look Sacerdotal up in Dictionary, there might be some other words you might want to look up from other postings - including Nunc Dimittis and Magnificat. Sacerdotal is a well used religious term.
2. Who said it is OK to bring different religions together and together worship the same creater or as put by “FM” Great architecht of the universe? This is theology in practice and cerainly not taught by Christianity.
2A. Well, Freemasonry is not a religion so they can’t really answer that question.
3. You don’t ordain clergy, or call members clergy - but the same principle stands as there are initiation / induction / ordination ceremonies for those who take on positions of rank. such as worshipful master who leads the ceremonies, chaplains - by the way what exactly is the role of the chaplain in “FM” if they are not aloud to evangelise within “FM” how do they offer spiritual comfort?
3A. Incorrect - Freemasonry is a fraternity, not a religion.
4. Not all religions define sin and salvation, though “FM” teaches that to get to heaven we must live a pure life - is that not a salvation doctrine?
4A. Freemasonry does not have a doctrine on sin and salvation.
5.This is false, you have your own secret book of initiation, rites and ceremonies that at each level or degree you are aloud to only have access to those rites or sacraments that you have been initiated into, as well you have your own ceremony that is performed at the funreals of masons and this in it’self is sacramenta.l
5A. Show me a book of Freemasonry Sacraments. I would hardly call the seven sacraments of the Catholick Church as being a secret book. I’m glad to hear, though, that you consider Burial as a Sacrament, - as i was not aware that it was a Sacrament in the Anglican Church.
6. publish or specify a Holy Book. Again as above point 5
6A. Show me a Holy Book of Freemasonry - I can’t seem to find one. You seem to have some secret knowledge of one - let us all in on this “Holy Book”
7.But the diety has been defined and described as being the great archeitecht of the universe
7A. Incorrect - does the bible make a physical description of “Our Father” - you you probably have created your own definition of what Our Father is.
At least put up some sensible questions regarding freemasonry - not all this unresearched ranting.
Craig, i really have to ask the question of whether you are an Anglican???
Craig, i really have to ask the question of whether you are an Anglican???
Good question. I am actually a “BORN AGAIN, BAPTISED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT CHRISTAIN” who happens to worship at an Anglican Church, because it is the church God told me to go to, and to worship at, and to help others to come and know him better.
By the way, who is it the ‘FM” pray and send the deceased onto at funreals?
By the way, who is it the ‘FM” pray and send the deceased onto at funreals?
Freemasons have a ceremony that they perform at funereals of deceased “FM’s”, before or after the church service. At this ceremony prayers are prayed, an euology of sorts is said, and the deceased is blessed by a freemason rite and sent on his way to the hereafter, or as they put it, ”to the great archeitecht in the sky”
The question I asked is, who is it that the “FM’s"are praying to?
This actually has led me to think and ask other question about this.
Who is it who leads this service?
What exactly is being said at this ceremony?
What is the purpose of this ceremony?
Who makes up the theology behind this ceremony?
As well you keep dodging the other questions I have asked you, I would like an answer to them.
Contemplative why if freemasonry is not a religious body, does each lodge have a chaplain
What exactly type of spiritual comfort can the chaplain give if they are not allowed to preach the Gospel?
What exactly is the role of the chaplain?
Why do they call the “Most worshipful master” just that?
what sort of worship is he leading?
I hope this clears up the original question and gives some more food for thought.
craig...I can not understand why a group of people that uses religious terms, uses religious titles can not be a religion?
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