In the News it has an article regarding freemasonry in the “Scottish Church”
What do we truly know of this organisation, is it compatable with Christianity, and is it, and should it be expected that our ministers and leaders of our church should abstain or be a member of this organisation / religion.

I have my definate views that the answer is no, because part of the first initiation into “FM” is that the novice claims “I was once in darkness, but have know come into the light of “FM"”

For a christian to claim that before they were in darkness before the initiation ceremony is to deny Christ and the work he did for them “

I would be interested in what you think

craig....you will have no other God’s before me

It’s hard work finding non-hysterical information on FM as there are Christians who believe they are responsible for every bad thing that happens on this earth.. I even know Christians who believe that your bad health (like your current headache) can be caused by your grandfather being a Mason!  They take up a version of reds under the beds and start seeing masonic influences everywhere. 

So to take them as an organisation (apart from the negative health impacts on your grandkids) can you be a mason, and be a christian.. and can you be christian and be a mason as well?

Mason’s claim that being a mason is just like being a Democrat or a Liberal or a member of your local sports club.. ie it makes no demands on the flavour of your religion, and encourages you to seek out truth in whatever religion you follow.  They seem happy for you to be hindu, buddhist, moslem, christian or whatever.  which is just like any other secular club (joining the local RSL dosen’t require you to be a Christian either). 

They do have a requirement that you believe in a supreme authority, and this is where it all starts to go pear shaped for the Christian.. according to www.free-masonry.net (a reasonably non-hysterical christian website - not mason) at the very time they are saying they are not a religious organisation, we get this gem:

“The true Mason is not creed-bound. He realizes with the divine illumination of his lodge that as a Mason his religion must be universal: Christ, Buddha, or Mohammed, the name means little, for he recognizes only the light and not the bearer.”

hookay.  So we start to see that Masonry does have some theological light to shed on Christianity.  Firstly the divine illumination comes not from the Holy Spirit but from the lodge.  scondly this illumination teaches that all paths to God are equally valid.  This is starting to get a little different from other social clubs.  Rather than being religiously neutral, Masonry says you can accept the form of any religion, provided it’s informed by the teachings of the lodge.  teachings like this one taken from the same source:

Jesus was just a man. He was one of the exemplars, one of the great men of the past, but not divine and certainly not the only means of redemption of lost mankind. He was on a level with other great men of the past like Aristotle, Plato, Pythagoras and Mohammed. His life and legend were no different from that of Krishna, the Hindu god. He is the son of Joseph, not the Son of God.”

Starting to sound very different to the local RSL’s application form.  So Mason’s aren’t the sort of “social” organisationas it might be understood.. they are a quasi religious organisation that has no form of itself (you can call yourself anything you like) but it sits over your religion and informs how you understand the “truths” your religion teaches.  Take for example the “truth” that Jesus is the way the truth and the life:

As the unifier of all religions, Freemasonry holds that “the Christian, the Hebrew, the Moslem, the Brahmin, the followers of Confucius and Zoroaster, can assemble as brethren and unite in prayer to the one god who is above all the Baalim.” (Pike, Morals and Dogma) In other words, the biblical God is reduced to the level of all the other gods and rendered as equal with the gods of those religions. Therefore, by definition, Freemasonry is a “religion” of plurality that strips all others of there uniqueness.

Bingo Bango.  Rather than Christianity being a way of life and a relationship with God it becomes an upgrade pack for Masonry. 

It’s hard work getting specific information about masonry from mason sources.  I’m trusting the sources above, but if anyone can produce info from the mason’s it would help.  There’s lots of statements like “we are not a religion” but little in the way of how they inteact with religion.  it’s important because it is at the heart of the FM life.

When thinking about FM remember to avoid the conspiracy theories and the wild claims.  If FM is satanic as the conspiracy theorists say then well as good.  Satan has no power over the Christian, so i’m not worried.  It’s important to deal with it as with any other religion: by examining it in the light of the scriptures.  It’s hard though when so little of the FM doctrine is made available. 

For mine Christians shouldn’t fiddle with FM but we should learn how to engage and rebut the ideas it puts forward.  I don’t think that christian leaders should be anywhere near it.

Freemasonry

Craig,

There is no part of Freemasonry that is incompatible with Christianity.  I think that you should move on to the next topic of how Football Clubs are incompatible with Christianity - because the argument has the same non value.

Re: Freemasonry

[quote author="Contemplative"]There is no part of Freemasonry that is incompatible with Christianity.

I’m more than happy to be proven wrong on this, but show me some documentation beyond statements that they are compatible on FM websites.  Is it like a football club? or is it more like saying that Islam and Christianinty are compatible because we both believe in the same God.  As always the devil in such a statement is in the details.  And given the details we have I continue to think it’s more of the latter than the former.

I know “FM” who have left churches because the Pastor dared state from the pulpit that being in relationship with God through his son Jesus Christ is the only way we can get to heaven and not be being good decent people, because deep down we are all sinfull.

If “FM” is not a religious group and doesn’t have it’s own religious teaching, why then did these people get most upset and leave in a huff?

craig..Jesus said “I am the way and the only way, I am the truth and the only truth, and I am the life and the only life”

Did you ask them??

Contemplative,
I did, and boy are they angry that it was dare suggested that Jesus christ is the only way to heaven.

craig...Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the life”

well, you can feel free to ask me any question you want on Freemasonry if you like.

Contemplative, thank you.

I ask you the following questions.

1. How can a Christian, in the Biblical sense of being born again, knowing their sins have been forgiven, that Christ is God, is the only way, is the only truth, is the only life enter into the first initiation into the “Blue Lodge”
and freely say something to the effect, whilst bowing down before the worshipful master
“I am lost in darkness and am seeking the light of freemasonry”

Isn’t this denying the work that Christ has already done in the believers life.

2. If Jesus Christ is the true light of the world, what light does free masonry have to offer.

3.Why do mason have to make a blood oath every time they enter into a degree of freemasonry -

How can this be compatible with the teaching of Jesus who said “Again you have heard that it was said to the people long ago,’do not break your oath but to keep the oaths you have made to the Lord. but I tell you, DO NOT SWEAR AT ALL: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne, or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem , for it is the city of the great King, and DO NOT SWEAR BY YOUR HEAD,for you can not make even one hair black or white. SIMPLY LET YOUR YES BE YES AND YOUR NO BE NO, ANY THING BEYOND THIS COMES FROM THE EVIL ONE. (Matt 5:33-37)

If Christians have been commanded by Jesus not to make oaths, but to simply say yes or no - that any thing else comes from the evil one: How can a christian in good faith join freemasonry?

4. In the freemason temple there is a Holy Book that the new apprentice is to kiss, he is given a lambskin to symbolise the purity necessary to get to heaven.

This in it’s self is a religious act, and again as a Christian has already been purified by the shed blood of Jesus which makes him holy and accesable to God, wouldn’t this act actually make him guilty of denying the work Christ has done for him and as well as making him guilty of Denying Christ before all in that room?

craig..who ever believes in him will not perish, but have eternal life

Thanks for your questions Craig - I shall try to answer them as best I can.

Question 1.  Many Christians are Freemasons because they believe that it is a n expression of morality based upon principles set forth in the Bible. Freemasonry does not act in anyway as an intermediary between man and God.  It is up to the individual whether they choose to deny the work of Christ in their lives.  In a similar fashion to your question - you would not say that a Street Directory has caused you to deny the work of Christ in your life simply because it leads you on a path to your destination.  Have you experienced a Masonic Initiation? 

Question 2.  I think that many organisations in contemporary life provide conduits for enlightenment.  For some, the challenge of Science, for others the persuit of Education.  As I believe that God presents a light so powerful that no other lights are able to overcome it, then it follows in my thought that the moral code expressed in Freemasonry is therefore inspired of God - simply because freemasonry has a basis in Christian scripture.  Freemasonry offers a way of communal expression of love, relief and truth.

Question 3.  I think you have been looking at too many websites who make up information on Freemasonry.  There are no “Blood Oaths” in freemasonry that I am aware of.  Now don’t forget that the Bible also tells us not to eat prawns or have facial hair.  The concept of an oath or swearing has changed definition since the time of Our Lord.  What do you mean by an oath???

Question 4. You might want to undertake a bit more research on your questions because you have some really unqualified images of what goes on in a masonic lodge.  Although, I would be keen to find out how you believe that kissing a “holy Book” or obtaining a sheepskin seat cover is a religious act.

I hope that this will provide you with some light on the subject.

Contemplative wrote in answer to my question regarding coming out of darkness into freemason light

Freemasonry does not act in anyway as an intermediary between man and God. It is up to the individual whether they choose to deny the work of Christ in their lives. In a similar fashion to your question - you would not say that a Street Directory has caused you to deny the work of Christ in your life simply because it leads you on a path to your destination. Have you experienced a Masonic Initiation?

Every mason has to answer yes to this first intitial ceremony, therefore every Christian who practices masonary is guilty of denying Christ’s work in their life by saying they “Are in darkness and wish to enter into the light of freemasonary.

Contemplative answered to my 2nd question

Freemasonry is therefore inspired of God - simply because freemasonry has a basis in Christian scripture. Freemasonry offers a way of communal expression of love, relief and truth

That indeed freemasonry may use and indeed promote moral values that are indeed promoted by the “Bible” is indeed commendable. However it is the picking out of scriptures to use to support their view and the discarding of others when it doesn’t clerly disregards it’s commitment to Christ.

Take for example; Christ’s command to go into all the world and preach the Gospel, in the lodge masons are explicitly commanded not to evangelise fellowmasons.

contemplative wrote in regards to my 3rd question

I think you have been looking at too many websites who make up information on Freemasonry. There are no “Blood Oaths” in freemasonry that I am aware of

I have never looked up a website for any of my information, but get my information from well researched books that quote books that are authored by masons.

As to your saying there are no “Blood Oaths” in freemasonry to your knowledge, then you either are not a mason your self, by which you have previously implied you are, or you don’t know, and have never reflected on, what it is you are or have actually said.

This is a copy of part of the first oath said as in the first stage as an “entered apprentice”

“ I do hereby and hereon most sincerly promise and SWEAR that I will always hail, ever conceal, & never reveal, any of the arts, parts or points of the hidden mysteries of ancient freemasonary which may of been, or hereafter shall be, at this time, or any future period, communicatted to me as such, to any person or persons whomever, except it to be to a true and lawful brother mason or in a lawfully constituted lodge of masons...I furthermore promise and swear that I will not print, paint, stamp,stain,cut,carve, mark or engrave them, to cause the same to be done on anything movable or inmovable, capable of recieving the least impression of a word, syllable, letter or character, whereby the same may become legible or intelligible to any person under the canopy of heaven and the secrets of masonary thereby unlawfully obtained through my unworthiness.
All this I most solemnly, sincerly promise and swear, with a firm and steadfast resolution to perform the same, without any mental reservations or secret evasion of mind what ever BINDING MY SELF UNDER NO LESS PENALTY THAN THAT OF HAVING MY THROAT CUT ACROSS, MY TONGUE TORN OUT BY IT’S ROOTS AND MY BODY BURIED IN THE ROUGH SANDS OF THE SEA, AT LOW WATER MARK, WHERE THE TIDE EBBS AND FLOWS TWICE IN TWENTY FOUR HOURS, SHOULD I EVER KNOWINGLY VIOLATE THIS MY ENTERED APPRENTICE OBLIGATION. SO HELP ME GOD, AND KEEP ME STEADFAST IN THE DUE PERFORMANCE OF THE SAME”.

Now when entering into the “fellow craft degree” the 2nd degree in the blue lodge, the oath includes the additional words

“BINDING MYSELF UNDER NO LESS A PENALTY THAN THAT OF HAVING MY LEFT BREAST TORN OPEN, MY HEART PLUCKED OUT AND GIVEN AS PREY TO THE WILD BEASTS OF THE FIELD AND THE FOWLS OF THE AIR”

Again when seeking entrance into the third degree - the master mason of the blue lodge, the oath add’s

“BINDING MYSELF UNDER NO LESS PENALTY THAN TO HAVE MY BODY SEVERED IN TWO, AND DIVIDED TO THE NORTH AND SOUTH, MY BOWELS BURNT TO ASHES IN THE CENTRE AND THE ASHES SCATTERED TO THE 4 WINDS OF HEAVEN, THAT THERE MIGHT NOT BE THE LEAST TRACK OR TRACE OF REMEBRANCE REMAIN AMONG MEN, OR MASONS OF SO A VILE AND WRETCH AS i SHOULD BE, WERE I EVER TO PROVE WILLFULLY GUILTY OF VIOLATING ANY PART OF THIS SOLEMN OATH AND OBLIGATION OF A MASTER MASON. SO HELP ME GOD, AND KEEP ME STEADFAST IN THE DUE PERFORMANCE OF THE SAME”

Contemplative I am very sorry, these are blood oaths, and not only are you swearing that this be done to your self, but you are also swearing that you will be steadfast in doing the same to others.

Contemplative you wrote

Although, I would be keen to find out how you believe that kissing a “holy Book” or obtaining a sheepskin seat cover is a religious act.

The lamskin is presented to the candidate of the first degree, with the words that this is a emblem of innocence, and the purity that is needed for the one who seeks entrance into the “celestial lodge above” meaning heaven.

Now the trouble is, to enter into the first degree you have to declare that you are in darkness and seek the light of freemasonry.
As has been pointed out, Christians are already in the light of Jesus Christ and to say or repeat this is the denying of Christ.
The lambskin symbolises the purity needed to get to heaven, or as the lodge puts it the “celestial lodge above”.

Now what this is saying in simplified terms is, we have our own way of getting to heaven, you don’t need Christ.

If the foundation is not built on the Rock - the building will fall. Jesus himself said “if any man deny me before other men, my father will deny him in heaven, however if any man confesses me before men, I too will confess him to the father.

craig...on Christ the solid rock I stand, all othe rground is sinking sand.

The material that you present is really out of date. 

But thanks for your point of view.

Contemplative, you said that the material I have presented is out of date.

What exactly did I say is out of date?
If the vows I have mentioned are out of date, then I need to ask the fillowing questions and make a statement.

1.  If the vows I have mentioned are out of date, then you agree with me that these vows were used and that blood vows used to be taken in freemasonry.

2. How long has this material been out of date?

3. If it is recently out of date, then there are many men involved in freemasonry who have taken these vows, I know of men who have been masons for 50 years or so.

4. What vows are taken today, or what is the current material that I can use to refutte my previous statements, questions.

craig...All things need to be brought out into the light of Jesus Christ, other wise the deception is they come under the shadow of the angel of light who is satan himself, and whatever is in the shadows of this light is in darkness indeed.

I think you might be looking at some old american freemasonry books.

Regardless, I can assume that you might be misunderstanding the literal interpretation of what is being said.  What appears at first sight to you as a literal oath may in fact be an allegory.

No, I don’t agree with you that these are blood oaths.

Yes, your material is out of date from what is currently used.

I’m glad that you know other masons - you will therefore understand that they are men who believe in the great principals of love, relief and search for truth.

I think that you are confused to believe that freemasonry as a religion, which it is not.

Contemptlative, you wrote

I think that you are confused to believe that freemasonry as a religion, which it is not.

According to the “Macquarie Dictionary"1991

Religion “recognition on the part of man of a controlling superhuman power entitled to obedience, reverence and worship”.

Religious 1 “Of pertaining to, or concerned with religion
2.Scrupulousy faithful, concientious

Within the freemason temple hymmes or songs are sung to the “great architecht of the heavens” “Prayers are prayed” and you can only join if you believe in God, and you are taught on the path to heaven.

This sounds very religious and like a religion to me, what do others think?

Contemplative, if I am using out of date material, what are the vows that are currently said today?. if they are only allergorical and not meant to be taken literally, you can share them with us here.

You are really stuck in a literalist perspective Craig!

Now apply the Macquarie definition of Religion to Football or working in the army.