I’m surprised you’re suggesting that any Christian can do more than Jesus himself. That’s quite a big claim, and an interesting way to interpret the text. Do you know any people who have actually out-healed & out-miracled Jesus?

Luke, I know this is rather a sensitive topic.

I’m with Craig here.

The Gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was for the church “until the end of the age”. The gifts imparted through the Spirit haven’t ceased either. I think many Christians are sceptical on this ongoing role of the Comforter; mainstream protestants particularly, and some evangelicals, have enormous difficulty believing the Holy Spirit is anything more than a Nice Idea™ who was real for the apostles and go, but is just an empty idea, the obligatory third member of the Trinity…

In actual fact, the presence of the Holy Spirit is Christ among us in an ongoing way. It is logical, that if Christ remains with us, then so do his acts; we are his body, we are to do those acts, enlivened and envigorated by the Spirit of Christ.

The healings and miracles Jesus did were predicated on the faith of the person who needed healing. That is the core of relationship with Jesus: coming to him in faith. Faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains; why couldn’t it also heal the sick and comfort the afflicted?

Having said that, one really cannot be prescriptive about these things. Canon Jim Glennon runs a healing ministry at my parish, and several times he has linked lack of faith to lack of healing. I disagree with this, because ultimately the will of God and the path he lays for each of us is different. If we haven’t been healed, we must persevere loving and trusting God - that is part of our journey until he gives us a new direction.

[quote author="Craig"]I said I have asked, I have believed and we are still sick as dogs, now either this Bbile is full of lies and that means you are a liar, or your words is truth and you are a man of your word. God I said I have asked, I believe you will heal my family and myself - Now you have to honor your word - now pay up - my family must be healed - otherwise your word is just a pack of lies.

[quote author="Craig"]...the Bible says there is a time to live and a time to die, if you pray for someone to be healed and they die it means simply it was Gods timing for them to die.

Craig, isn’t there a slight inconsistency between these two statements?  If, as you say, the Bible says there is a time to live and a time to die, then how can we demand that God heal us and say that if he doesn’t, then he’s a liar?

I don’t have a problem with the fact that God can and does still heal today, but to demand that he does so and to say that he’s a liar when he doesn’t heal, is another matter altogether.

I’m being sarcastic here “Perhaps it was satan who healed me”

I guess, ultimately, I am asking how you know it wasn’t.

Was it not Gog himself who said “what ever you ask in me, what ever you ask of me I will do”

Well the logical conclusion of that is that my friends son will be healed from leukemia right now. There are certainly enough people asking God to heal him and if God bows to our wishes in all instances like you describe above then I expect to get an email today saying he has had a miraculous healing.

I also second Andrew’s post about the inconcistency between your two statements.

Furthermore, not all people die from long-term illness and sickness. Luke, I hope you don’t mind me using you as an example here (feel free to delete the rest of this post if you do). Luke has been very open with us here about the illness that is plaguing him and having all sorts of nasty and unwelcome effects on his body. I know I have prayed for his healing, I’m certain he has, of course, prayed for his healing and maybe even you Craig have prayed for it. What happens if he is never healed from it? How does that fit with your claim that if we ask it of God he will heal?

[quote author="Dani Treweek"]Well the logical conclusion of that is that my friends son will be healed from leukemia right now. There are certainly enough people asking God to heal him and if God bows to our wishes in all instances like you describe above then I expect to get an email today saying he has had a miraculous healing.

Unless you don’t have enough faith. Or him.  Either way someone isn’t praying hard enough.

Unless you don’t have enough faith. Or him. Either way someone isn’t praying hard enough.

LOL

Rowen, you should audition as an American tele-evangelist ;)

Just a couple of quick comments and observations…

I can certainly understand where Luke is coming from.  Like Luke, I live with an illness that can be sometimes debilitating, and I can understand some of the angst I read in his posts on this topic.  I’ve asked the same questions of God and others.  But ultimately, it comes back to a statement that pervades our lives (sometimes like a question, most times like a disease)… ‘Why do bad things happen to good people’.

I think Jason was right when he said there is no clear cut answer here.

I myself am caught in a paradox.  I’ve just returned from a trip to the USA.  In the 9 days I was there, I ministered to around 7000 people.  I saw folk saved, set free from the ‘crap’ in their lives, (etc etc).  it was awesome...but I would slink off to a corner afterwards and ask God why it is that I still had to live with stuff when other people were seemingly released (sure I am blurring the lines between emotional/physical here, but they are linked).

There are times when God does not ordain physical healing for us.  But even if he does (heal) or doesn’t (heal), he does offer healing of our own hearts and minds and lives.

Come - you who are weary and heavy laden - and I will give you rest.

Notice the 3 parts.  Jesus does not say get your life right first.  Jesus does not say make sure you are free of disease and illness, or mental anguish, or tragedy, or “whatever the heck you want to write in the space”.  He just says come… It is enough Dani, and Luke, and Craig and Jason and everyone else that is wrestling with the issues here, to simply come.  It may not feel like enough, but it is. 

Come, and bring all the crap…

and I will give you......rest - not sleep, but comfort in grace scarred hands.

I think maybe the easier answer is to simply allow God to work, without believing he will only work like we all think he should work, based on our own life experiences and our own reading of the scriptures.

Can (and does) God heal us physically miraculously.  Yes.  A definate absolute yes.

Does it seem sometimes that God doesn’t heal us physically miraculously.  Yes, again definately yes.

It is a paradox - but then so is much of our Christian lives (ie a man who is fully God and a God who is fully man - go figure).

God bless y’all!!  (picked that word up in the US too!!  hehehe)

[quote author="Adam Gregory"]Rowen, you should audition as an American tele-evangelist ;)

Nah, he’s not any good at it, he didn’t ask for any money! :)

[quote author="Mike"]It is a paradox - but then so is much of our Christian lives (ie a man who is fully God and a God who is fully man - go figure).

That’s a good point Mike, a lot of what we belive has underlying paradoxes.[list][*] Triune God who is one but three
[*] God who knows all and controls all yet seems to give us choices (ie Gods will vs free will).
[*] God’s love vs God’s justice[/list:u]This is, I know, of little comfort to those who are suffering in un-healed pain.  But it is a mystery why God does many things.  Why do some get saved and others not?  The same could be asked, I guess, of physical, mental or emotional healing as well.

Glenn

[quote author="Glenn Slaven"][quote author="Adam Gregory"]Rowen, you should audition as an American tele-evangelist ;)

Nah, he’s not any good at it, he didn’t ask for any money! :)

Gah.  d’oh.  Send me money.

healing & demons

Rowen,

Cash, credit card, money order, BPAY, paypal, money order? I know… direct deposit. Address?

Angela

G’day Andrew you asked,

Craig, isn’t there a slight inconsistency between these two statements? If, as you say, the Bible says there is a time to live and a time to die, then how can we demand that God heal us and say that if he doesn’t, then he’s a liar?

A good question Andrew, in the context of the sickness my family was suffering it was very unlikely that it was Gods will for all 6 of us to turn heel and die. Though in saying this it very well could have been.

Sometimes when we pray for people to recover they do, sometimes when we pray for people to recover from life threatening illness’s they don’t. It was in this context I was speaking of.

Over the last 2 & 1/2 years I have been in 4 near death experiences 3 of where I was literally only minutes away from death - the first time I collapsed outside the rectors house after a wardens meeting beside my car - all I could do was to say to the lord - “If my times up take me Lord, if not don’t leave me lying here it’s cold, hurry up and get someone to find me” Some people came out and found me, when the ambos came I was only about a minute away from dieing before I was given adrenaline, even in hospital it was touch and go - this happened on another 2 occasions.

Gods word never says we will not get sick, he does say he will heal us. Jesus says many times throughout the gospels that we are to ask and believe, whatso ever you ask, ask without doubting, I tell you the truth if you say to this mountain be removed and do not doubt it shall be done.

Dani you asked said in reply to my sarcastic remark,

I’m being sarcastic here “Perhaps it was satan who healed me”

of which I am sorry for please forgive me.

I guess, ultimately, I am asking how you know it wasn’t.

How do we really know our sins are forgiven? Is it not because the bible tells us that they are? How do we really know Jesus is God is it not because the Bible records Jesus as saying so and the testimony of teh Holy Spirit in our hearts. How do we really know that Jesus was truly ressurected? Is it not because the Bible clearly records that as happening?

The Bible all so clearly records Jesus many times talking about prayer, talking about asking, talking about believing to be able to recieve, Jesus himself says in John - Whatso ever you ask in my name I shall do it for you if it glorifies the Father.

Well Dani this is the key to it all, You see I asked in Jesus name - not because I tagged “in Jesus name at the end of that prayer which would only some be some kind of supperstitious talisman” It’s because I can come to Father God any time because of my relationship to him through Jesus. I asked God to do this in Jesus name and God answered “Yes my Son I will do what you asked me to do” - now sometimes God has said to me “Son you are not ready for it yet” or sometimes God has said to me “Craig for my own reasons I ‘m not going to do that I’m going to do something else” And I will get somethin gelse that was much better than what I originally asked for.

Now if I ask in Jesus name surely you don’t think the devil is going to answer that to give God the glory do you?

I think the devil has his other ways of counterfieghting the gifts of the spirit such as the occult and newage stuff.

In the same way we know who Jesus is through the Bible, we also can be sure his words are ture, Jesus said ask, believe recieve. This is the basis of coming to him in prayer. On the flip side if we ask God for something and are filled of doubt - then we are not asking in faith - we are asking in unbelief. However all is not lost in those circumstances as God is able to immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine (think) - it is my practice when i come to god and am filled with doubt that I say so to God, I say to God what the father said to Jesus when the disciples were unable to deliver his son. the father said to Jesus “ If you can please help my son Jesus replied “All things are possible for those who believe And the father replied “ Lord I believe - help me in my unbelief

There are many times in my approach to God when I am filled with doubt and unbelief, and at those times I need to confess that to God and ask him to fill me with faith, to help me with my unbelief and he God does, then I am able to ask him in faith to supply me for my needs or to truly make believing intercession for what ever I am interceding about.

It is a interesting phrase / word study to see how many times Jesus says in effect, ask believe and recieve. To recieve what we ask for from God is just as natural as it is for us to recieve forgiveness of our sins when we ask for it.

craig

G’day Enkindu,

Enkindu you have very eloquently ( I do say that as a compliment )given a great explanation of the word greater and I can concede to that is what that word means.

However as the Scripture says

Joh 14:12 Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father

Jesus is recorded as saying in the first part of John in saying that who ever believes in him - they shall do what Jesus did.

Then Jesus goes on and says “As well as those works greater works they shall do as well” So doing the work of Jesus is inclusive of healing / deliverence.

Now in saying that it also means in being provided for in times of need. Take for example Corrie Teen Boons example of her little bottle of vitamins never running out in prison - an extreme example I know. Perhaps George Mueller’s history would be a better example of how God continued to provide for his needs and for those under his care.

There is no better thing I believe then to see someone come into the kingdom of God and recieve his salvation and this is yes the great work the church has been given to do.

I want to tie this in with Matt 28 of the last commission.

Mat 28:19 Therefore go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And, behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the world. Amen.

This is a perpetual commandment handed down from each generation to the next. one of teh things Jesus commanded and taught his disciples to do was to heal the sick, cast out demons etc.

There is no real way we can get around the fact that healing is just as much a part of the gospel today as it was back then.

craig