G’day Ian,

[quote author="Ian Holder"]Christ used a forty-day period of prayer and fasting to prepare for His ministry.  I believe it is fitting for us to imitate Him as we prepare to celebrate the climax of His ministry, Easter.  The Cathechism of the Catholic Church says it well (I think):

“ ‘For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tested as we are, yet without sinning’ [Heb 4:15]. By the solemn forty days of Lent the Church unites herself each year to the mystery of Jesus in the desert.” (CCC 540).

Err ... I’m going to be obtuse (and sound like a whiny 4 year old) and ask again, but why?? Why is it fitting to imitate in a very limited way his sojourn in the desert, as opposed to his sojourn across the Sea of Galilee during a storm? What is the “mystery” of Jesus in the desert? Why should we be united to this mystery? Will I ever run out of questions to ask??? ;)

[quote author="Ian Holder"]The movement of the Church through the Liturgical Year is something I value highly.  Each reading set for each Sunday has a particular message which relates to where we are at.  I am wary of throwing this out for the sake of “understanding one book”.  But that is my view.

The reason I place a great deal of value on understanding one book as a whole via a sermon series is that is how the Bible was written - book by book, each one a self-contained portion of a wider whole to which it is bound. Biblical books were not written as chapters and verses for orderly appropriation (a much later invention), but as continuous narratives (with the exception of books like Psalms, which still have strong interrelationships between each individual narrative). If that was the way they were written, I think it’s fair to say that’s the way they should be read and taught. This is not to say, however, that I don’t appreciate the value that the Liturgical Year can provide.

[quote author="Ian Holder"]If people want series on a book, I think it would be good if, say they were doing Ephesians, to have a reading from the OT as well.  (1) To provide the balance, and (2) to reaffirm we are people of both Testaments.

!!! How spooky! That’s precisely what my church is doing right now! We are reading through 1 Kings for the OT readings, and learning from Ephesians for our sermon series! This is, by the way, the standard practice at all three evangelical Sydney Anglican diocese churches I have belonged to: an OT and a NT reading, one of which is the basis of the sermon.

[quote author="Ian Holder"]And your Colossians post refers to “human precepts and teachings” - the “Whenever you fast” command came from Jesus.

Yes - but I would submit that the injunction to fast during a man-made festival called Lent is clearly a human precept and teaching. In fact, Jesus was questioned as to why his disciples didn’t fast whereas the Pharisees and the disciples of John the Baptist did (Matthew 9:14ff, Mark 2:18ff & Luke 5:33ff), suggesting at least that he saw it as being of lesser importance than his contemporaries did. Jesus’ teaching on “whenever you fast” is more of a guide to how they are to do it and avoid being self-righteous than an injunction to do it.

Thanks again,

Timbo

For those preparing for lent, I have but one comment to make.....

“I brought back real maple syrup from the US for tomorrow"…

hehehehehehe.

Well if that doesn’t just take the cake! I want to see how this all pans out ...

You’re not stirring up trouble are you, Tim?

[quote author="Mike"]I brought back real maple syrup from the US for tomorrow

1. Surely “real” maple syrup comes from Canada!

2. I can buy real Canadian 100% pure Maple Syrup from Coles. I don’t have to leave the country!

ahhhh but is it grade AAA maple syrup from Canada??

hehehehe

Mike: I still have jars of the stuff from Canada...and I visited in 2001!!!  My friend’s mum gave me many 1ltr bottles!!! ;-)

[quote author="Tim Allen"]Err ... I’m going to be obtuse (and sound like a whiny 4 year old) and ask again, but why?? Why is it fitting to imitate in a very limited way his sojourn in the desert, as opposed to his sojourn across the Sea of Galilee during a storm? What is the “mystery” of Jesus in the desert? Why should we be united to this mystery? Will I ever run out of questions to ask??? ;)

Answer to your last question: Probably not.
;-)

I place more stock in Tradition than you do, so I would say the “man-made festival called Lent” (as you called it) was given to the Church by God: and thus is part of Holy Tradition.  As I said, the Church views Jesus’ time in the desert as preparation for His ministry - the climax of which is His death & resurrection.  Thus, as we approach the time where we remember His death & resurrection, we prepare our hearts by prayer and fasting to ponder this.

I know this probably does not answer all your questions, but this is how I see it.  And as you are sola scrriptura and I am not, we are obviously approaching this from very different angles. 

[quote author="Tim Allen"]
The reason I place a great deal of value on understanding one book as a whole via a sermon series is that is how the Bible was written - book by book, each one a self-contained portion of a wider whole to which it is bound. Biblical books were not written as chapters and verses for orderly appropriation (a much later invention), but as continuous narratives (with the exception of books like Psalms, which still have strong interrelationships between each individual narrative). If that was the way they were written, I think it’s fair to say that’s the way they should be read and taught. This is not to say, however, that I don’t appreciate the value that the Liturgical Year can provide.

As I said before, I can see you point of view, but I politely disagree.  The Church Calendar moves us through the year, with each week have its own emphasis.  I, again, am prepared to bow to Tradition for this.

But—I have no issue with those whow want a book as a whole taught; I simply believe you are missing a great deal [and you probably believe I am].

[quote author="Tim Allen"]
!!! How spooky! That’s precisely what my church is doing right now! We are reading through 1 Kings for the OT readings, and learning from Ephesians for our sermon series! This is, by the way, the standard practice at all three evangelical Sydney Anglican diocese churches I have belonged to: an OT and a NT reading, one of which is the basis of the sermon.

We have moved in very different circles...every evangelical Anglican parish I have belonged to / visited has only had 1 reading!!!  Interesting: thanks for the information.

[quote author="Tim Allen"]
[quote author="Ian Holder"]And your Colossians post refers to “human precepts and teachings” - the “Whenever you fast” command came from Jesus.

Yes - but I would submit that the injunction to fast during a man-made festival called Lent is clearly a human precept and teaching. In fact, Jesus was questioned as to why his disciples didn’t fast whereas the Pharisees and the disciples of John the Baptist did (Matthew 9:14ff, Mark 2:18ff & Luke 5:33ff), suggesting at least that he saw it as being of lesser importance than his contemporaries did. Jesus’ teaching on “whenever you fast” is more of a guide to how they are to do it and avoid being self-righteous than an injunction to do it.

But in those sections Jesus said they didn’t fast because He was with them - once he left, he said they would fast.  I am not going to give up ground here: Jesus did say fasting was important and should be done.  And I do not think he saw it of “lesser importance” at all.  I politely suggest you have incorrectly read the meaning of these passages.

Can I also make it clear I am not suggesting you must fast; I think everyone should, and I aim to at some point under the guidance of my priest.  However, if someone says we shouldn’t fast, I will take exception to that.  Fasting has been given to us and I believe it is part of the “fullness of faith”.

God bless,
Ian.

[quote author="Mike"]ahhhh but is it grade AAA maple syrup from Canada??

hehehehe

Coles sells fully imported Maple syrup and they also sell Maple flavoured syrup - just make sure you buy the fully imported, as the fake stuff is cheap and nasty.

...and for those readers who are now totally confused, here is some more info:

http://englishculture.allinfoabout.com/features/shrove2.html

... of course if you don’t like Maple Syrup you can always settle for lemon and sugar.

... or peanut butter, honey and milo

... or ice-cream, cream, stawberries and caster sugar

Enjoy!

JD

[quote author="Mike"]ahhhh but is it grade AAA maple syrup from Canada??

Actually, from what I can tell, “grade AAA” is the invention of some marketing person (if it exists at all). See here for the grades you should legitimately be able to get. Anyway, ours comes with the MapleMark and tastes fine to me.

Of course I think good old fresh lemon juice and castor sugar is far nicer on pancakes…

[quote author="Enkidu Jones"][quote author="Mike"]ahhhh but is it grade AAA maple syrup from Canada??

Of course I think good old fresh lemon juice and castor sugar is far nicer on pancakes…

I thought that I had incorrectly spelt “caster” but to my profound relief, my trusty pocket OED (1982 Ed.) shows, “caster” as an alternative spelling for, “castor”.

Phew!  I thought I was going to have to shrive myself ...

JD

Peanut, honey and milo.....together???????????

[quote author="Mike"]Peanut, honey and milo.....together???????????

Don’t knock it ‘til you’ve tried it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sounds positively… well… hmmm…

Anyone got an exorcist on hand???

Yes - but I would submit that the injunction to fast during a man-made festival called Lent is clearly a human precept and teaching. In fact, Jesus was questioned as to why his disciples didn’t fast whereas the Pharisees and the disciples of John the Baptist did (Matthew 9:14ff, Mark 2:18ff & Luke 5:33ff), suggesting at least that he saw it as being of lesser importance than his contemporaries did. Jesus’ teaching on “whenever you fast” is more of a guide to how they are to do it and avoid being self-righteous than an injunction to do it.

The end of the quote you paraphrase (the one about where he’s questioned why he and the disciples aren’t fasting) says:

Jesus answered, “How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.

Jesus expects his disciples will fast when he is not with them.

He then makes comments about wineskins and patches on garments, the gist of which is that his coming changes the practices of the Jews; Jewish fasts were tied to the temple year (and still are). Jesus in his life death and resurrection put an end to the Jewish practices. This doesn’t mean there weren’t to be new ones (like baptism and celebrating the remembrance of his death and passion in the Eucharist). It is simply a statement that his coming changed the situation at the time.

Lent might be a “man-made” period of time, as with the rest of the liturgical year. But it is a very ancient practice, tied to the proselytising, conversion and baptismal process. In this it is inherently Christian - and if it’s helpful to faith, it’s a good thing.

Peanut, honey and milo.....together???????????

Yewch! *barf*