Can I suggest a new topic here? and that is - to what extent do people observe Lent?
You sometimes hear tell of folks giving up chocolate or some such modest luxury, which surely trivialises Christ’s suffering for us on the Cross.
I gave up alcohol once for Lent, but I think it was a mistake. It just made me feel miserable, and it was neither an effective witness, nor any sort of aid to spiritual growth.
Has Lent become a bit of a joke - far less well known than either the orgiastic festival which immediately precedes it (Mardi Gras) or the great long weekend which immediately follows it (is there any other country so devout as Australia that it celebrates “Easter Monday”?)
I am wondering whether people find the traditional seasons of the Church useful aids to devotion, and in what way?
Great topic Alan: I was so eager I had to start it myself! ;-)
The Orthodox started the Lenten Fast last Sunday with “Meatfare Sunday: no meat to be consumed after that Sunday until after Divine Liturgy on Easter Sunday. “Cheesefare Sunday” is this Sunday, with no eggs or dairy products thereafter. [Look here for more info.]
I am not attempting this this year as I have to admit I have no real idea about fasting: I have read a little, but it hasn’t sunk into my thick brain as yet! ;-) I want to talk to my Spiritual Advisor [once I get one!] as to fasting and how it should be approached and what one does: otherwise I believe it would be useless, and perhaps horrifically viewed as some form of diet! *argh* If someone here has some information, I’d gladly read it.
Despite my lack of knowledge, I do believe fasting has a role to play. Jesus made mention that he expected His disciples to do it [e.g. “Whenever you fast...” Matthew 6:16 - “whenever” sounding to me like it was expected...Jesus never said “do not fast"].
Like Alan, I once tried to give up something [chocolate; or was it ice-cream?] for Lent: it didn’t do much for me. But I wonder if that was because I went in with a wrong attitude. I do think abstinence can be helpful, but as I said above, I’d want to be under the direction of my priest or Spiritual Advisor.
In terms of the Church Calendar, I do find it very useful. The entirety of the life of Christ is covered in a year, and one can in some sense make the pilgrimage through the life of Jesus via the Calendar. I believe it is also important as it enables you—if you attend all services, or do the weekday bits at home like I used to—to read through the entire Bible in 3(?) years [I think].
Certain Feasts bring out their own emotions: the emptiness of the sanctuary and the solemn procession in on Good Friday is a stark reminder to me of that day; the joy of Easter Sunday when all is restored and the church is decked in white; the seasons of Lent and Advent and their purples and particular hymns and collects [I’m reverting to Anglicanism here...I’m yet to experience a full month let alone a year in an Orthodox Church so I’m can’t comment there!]
And, this may be a point of contention, but I’ll say it and be prepared to be flamed ;-): knowing most of the rest of the Anglican Communion, as well as the Romans and Lutherans, were joining in the same celebration was a wonderful feeling—as well as knowing that people through the ages have chanted the same responses and sung the same hymns. While the Orthodox have many similar feasts to the Western Churches, there are a few different ones ["3rd Finding of John the Baptist’s Head” anyone? ;-)]—I do think I’ll shed a tear of nostalgia on Trinity Sunday when “Holy, Holy, Holy” is not heard, and on “All Saints’ “ when the heavenly “For All The Saints” no longer booms from an organ… But the Orthodox have their own tear-jerkers.
Boy, I have (p)rattled on… I hope I’ve followed the lead you wanted, Alan.
I have always found Lent to be a season of spiritual growth. I guess this is because of the tendency to reflection… And also being more aware of what you are doing. Giving up chocolate or alcohol or some small luxury is enough to make one think more about what one is doing.
This year I am going to give up road-rage and negative thoughts about other people, for Lent. I am anticipating this to be rather a challenge…
[quote author="Alan"]I gave up alcohol once for Lent, but I think it was a mistake. It just made me feel miserable, and it was neither an effective witness, nor any sort of aid to spiritual growth.
[my bold]
I wouldn’t say fasting should be a witness, after all Jesus did say to not make a big show of it when you do it. I think it is something between you and God.
That doesn’t mean [to me] that you can’t share the fact you are “fasting” or “abstaining” from others: I would check your motives—are you doing it for attention ["Hey, look at me—aren’t I holy???"] or does it flow naturally.
I have struggled with this: I do not eat meat on Good Friday and a few years’ back a friend invited me to a friend’s farewell on Good Friday—which turned out to be a BBQ. Well, I didn’t want to be rude, but my abstinence from meat on that day was something I held dear, so I grazed on the salad. When a sausage was placed on my plate I politely declined, and was given a response, “You’re not fasting, are you?”—in a tone signalling if I was it was equal to committing mass genocide. I responded “Yes” to mutters of “Catholic!” [this from Anglicans] *confused* I wonder should I have just eaten the damn thing. But, my conscience was clear...I wasn’t intending to be rude or disruptive. If he had of whipped up a lamb roast I probably would have eaten as he went to a lot of trouble...but a BBQ is hardly cordon bleu cuisine…
[quote author="Nunc Dimittis"]This year I am going to give up road-rage and negative thoughts about other people, for Lent. I am anticipating this to be rather a challenge…
Just to start with, can you advise me where Lent comes from? What I mean is, what defines where it ends and starts, what is done in it, when was it instituted and by whom? I am totally ignorant of its origins and purpose and would appreciate some information about it.
Secondly,
[quote author="Ian Holder"]In terms of the Church Calendar, I do find it very useful. The entirety of the life of Christ is covered in a year, and one can in some sense make the pilgrimage through the life of Jesus via the Calendar. I believe it is also important as it enables you—if you attend all services, or do the weekday bits at home like I used to—to read through the entire Bible in 3(?) years [I think].
Do you have a link or a copy of the Chruch Calendar that you could send to me? Is it specific to certain denominations? Or are you referring to the 3-year calendar such as found in AAPB? I understand that if you do the the additional readings you cover a lot more of the Bible, but the problem with the Sunday readings, if I recall correctly, is that they leave great swathes of the Bible (especially the OT) untouched.
That means that there are sections of the Bible that are never taught or even read publicly in a Sunday meeting if the calendar is followed to the letter. For instance, when was the last time that Song of Songs was covered in its entirety (or even in a sizable section) as part of a sermon series? Or 2 Corinthians? Or Habakkuk? I have to indicate I could be quite wrong about this as I know very little about the church calendar or seasons, so please be gentle with me if I have erred!
Well.... I’ve never celebrated any of the traditional feats or saints days o anything like that, so I really can’t comment on them. But I have fasted, and as such can add my comments.
Now for the past 5 months or so I’ve been fasting a day a week. It started with just not having lunch, then only having breakfast & dinner. Now I only have dinner. No my reasons for doing it are as follows.
1. Jesus said “when you fast”, not “if” or “don’t.” I believe he expected it to happen, along with prayer and giving that are similarly mentioned in Matthew 6.
2. It is a form of self-denial & self-control. Both things which are good, if you can’t control something as simple as eating, how can you control hatred, lust, envy etc.
3. On the fast day, I think of something that will be a prayer focus for that day. It might be an upcoming event, or a missionary, or praising an attribute of God, basically anything. When I get hungry, instead of eating, I pray for the focus.
So I think fasting is good, as long as you are focused on God. Not on losing weight, or trying to look holy in the eyes of men.
Thanks Dan for your views; I agree - and I do hope one day I can approach fasting as you do. I need a lot more help.
[quote author="Tim"]
Just to start with, can you advise me where Lent comes from? What I mean is, what defines where it ends and starts, what is done in it, when was it instituted and by whom? I am totally ignorant of its origins and purpose and would appreciate some information about it.
From my understanding, Lent orginated in the earliest days of the Church as a preparation time for Easter [the most important Feast in the church]. By observing the 40 days of Lent, Christians imitated Jesus’ time in the desert.
In terms of when it starts and such:
[list]
[*]Western Churches skip Sundays when calculating the length of Lent [as Sunday is the day of Resurrection]. Lent always begins on Ash Wednesday [seventh Wednesday before Easter] - it is Feb 25 this year [hence Mel releasing his movie worldwide then]
[*]Eastern Churches do not skip Sundays when calculating the length of Lent. “Great Lent” begins today [Mon 23] this year. Lent ends on the Friday before Palm (Passion) Sunday: Holy Week is a separate season from Lent in the Eastern Churches
[/list:u]
Bear in mind also the Eastern Churches use a different calendar to calculate Easter - look here for Easter date information and here (if you have 2,000,000 years ;-)) to read the calculation information.
[quote author="Tim"]
Secondly,
[quote author="Ian"]
In terms of the Church Calendar, I do find it very useful. The entirety of the life of Christ is covered in a year, and one can in some sense make the pilgrimage through the life of Jesus via the Calendar. I believe it is also important as it enables you—if you attend all services, or do the weekday bits at home like I used to—to read through the entire Bible in 3(?) years [I think].
Do you have a link or a copy of the Chruch Calendar that you could send to me? Is it specific to certain denominations?
Yes, it is specific to denominations - though I believe Catholics, Lutherans and Anglicans are quite similar in their observances. Click here for the Anglican calendar for Sundays; click here for the Holy Days.
[quote author="Tim"]
Or are you referring to the 3-year calendar such as found in AAPB? I understand that if you do the the additional readings you cover a lot more of the Bible, but the problem with the Sunday readings, if I recall correctly, is that they leave great swathes of the Bible (especially the OT) untouched.
I think AAPB and APBA have 3 year lectionaries associated with them.
In terms of OT neglect, this comes more from the current trend [as I see it] to only have one reading on Sunday. If you click here (I picked an Aussie site rather than the CoE’s one), you’ll see that the Lectionary prescribes one OT reading, one Psalm, one non-Gospel NT reading and one Gospel reading every Sunday of the year [except in the 8 weeks following Easter where Acts replaces the OT reading].
This one reading only movement does upset me as great thought was given by the early Church in determing which OT readings and Pslams to tie into the Gospel readings. They are not simply picked at random [from my understanding]. And it does aid in allowing you to hear on Sunday a great proportion of the Bible, as well [to my mind] dispelling the notion many Christians hold that the OT is somehow “lesser” than the NT, or out-of-date [see the Marcion heresy for the extreme example of this].
[quote author="Tim"]
That means that there are sections of the Bible that are never taught or even read publicly in a Sunday meeting if the calendar is followed to the letter. For instance, when was the last time that Song of Songs was covered in its entirety (or even in a sizable section) as part of a sermon series? Or 2 Corinthians? Or Habakkuk?
Would we have to expel the under-18s if Song of Songs was read… ;-)
I think I answered this point above when I made reference to the 4 prescribed readings—if you look at all the years you will see all books get a good run [although the CoE’s Common Worship Lectionary may shock you at some points when the Deuterocanonicals are read from].
I am in a mixed-mode regarding sermon series on certain books. As you say, a book may not be read in its entirely solely on the basis of Sunday services [but then lectionaries give you readings for every day of the year - Christianity is not Sunday only—and I have gained great benefit from attending weekday services when I could] and all books do have great benefit for teaching. I think I would prefer if, at the least, two readings were given a day [OT and NT]—rather than focus on the book at hand solely.
Ash Wednesday: traditionally the palms from last year’s Palm (Passion) Sunday service are burnt and the ashes used in a deeply moving part of the service. The priest marks the sign of the cross on your forehead with the ashes and says, “Remember you are dust and to dust you will return” [or similar].
This marks the beginning of the penitential season of Lent. It is often accompanied by fasting.
The colours on the altar [and other furnishings] and of the priestly garments changes to a purple or deep blue: royal colours to symbolise the preparation for the Coming of the King.
Of course, this is all Anglican-centric. Romans and Lutherans would do similar, I believe [I am unsure about the Presbyterian and the Uniting churches].
Ah! Many thanks. Just a few follow-up questions:
[quote author="Ian Holder"]By observing the 40 days of Lent, Christians imitated Jesus’ time in the desert.
Why should we (try to) imitate Jesus’ time in the desert?
[quote author="Ian Holder"]And it does aid in allowing you to hear on Sunday a great proportion of the Bible, as well [to my mind] dispelling the notion many Christians hold that the OT is somehow “lesser” than the NT, or out-of-date [see the Marcion heresy for the extreme example of this].
Good stuff!
[quote author="Ian Holder"]I am in a mixed-mode regarding sermon series on certain books. As you say, a book may not be read in its entirely solely on the basis of Sunday services [but then lectionaries give you readings for every day of the year - Christianity is not Sunday only—and I have gained great benefit from attending weekday services when I could] and all books do have great benefit for teaching. I think I would prefer if, at the least, two readings were given a day [OT and NT]—rather than focus on the book at hand solely.
I agree the additional readings given in a lectionary are of great benefit for personal daily reading, but as not many of us would be able to attend midweek services, and that public teaching on a book has benefits that are missed in personal reading, we still need to cover a wide range of scriptures in our sermons in Sunday services over the years.
The benefit as I see it of having a sermon series on a book, particularly the smaller ones, is that it allows the book to be examined as a whole in its full context, rather than as a small snippet, followed by another snippet from another book, from another historical situation, from another Testament, the following week. I think it provides a greater depth of understanding of the book at hand, as its key points are often revisted, reinforced and explained in greater detail throughout its narrative.
Just on the last underlined sentence, I’m not sure I understand what you envisage - could you spell it out in a bit more detail for my dull brain?
I am in no way saying you fast for the wrong reasons, but reading your contribution made me think of a particular admonition Paul gave to the Colossians:
[quote author="Dan Summers"]2. It is a form of self-denial & self-control. Both things which are good, if you can’t control something as simple as eating, how can you control hatred, lust, envy etc.
[quote author="Colossians 2:20-23 (ESV)"]20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
I appreciate this scripture is probably not referring to periodical fasting so much as to permanent abstinence from certain things, but just in case there are some parallels in our intent with regards to fasting, I thought it would be useful to reflect on.
[quote author="Dan Summers"]3. On the fast day, I think of something that will be a prayer focus for that day. It might be an upcoming event, or a missionary, or praising an attribute of God, basically anything. When I get hungry, instead of eating, I pray for the focus.
Great to hear that you align fasting with such useful praying! But, I must admit, this is something that confuses me about fasting as a whole - why couldn’t you just do the praying without the fasting? I recognise Jesus’ words to the effect that fasting is not prohibited, so it’s something we’re free to do - I just have trouble understanding what it helps achieve. Help and suggestions, anyone?
[quote author="Tim Allen"]Just a few follow-up questions:
[quote author="Ian Holder"]By observing the 40 days of Lent, Christians imitated Jesus’ time in the desert.
Why should we (try to) imitate Jesus’ time in the desert?
Christ used a forty-day period of prayer and fasting to prepare for His ministry. I believe it is fitting for us to imitate Him as we prepare to celebrate the climax of His ministry, Easter. The Cathechism of the Catholic Church says it well (I think):
“ ‘For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tested as we are, yet without sinning’ [Heb 4:15]. By the solemn forty days of Lent the Church unites herself each year to the mystery of Jesus in the desert.” (CCC 540).
[quote author="Tim Allen"]
[quote author="Ian Holder"]I am in a mixed-mode regarding sermon series on certain books. As you say, a book may not be read in its entirely solely on the basis of Sunday services [but then lectionaries give you readings for every day of the year - Christianity is not Sunday only—and I have gained great benefit from attending weekday services when I could] and all books do have great benefit for teaching. I think I would prefer if, at the least, two readings were given a day [OT and NT]—rather than focus on the book at hand solely.
I agree the additional readings given in a lectionary are of great benefit for personal daily reading, but as not many of us would be able to attend midweek services, and that public teaching on a book has benefits that are missed in personal reading, we still need to cover a wide range of scriptures in our sermons in Sunday services over the years.
The benefit as I see it of having a sermon series on a book, particularly the smaller ones, is that it allows the book to be examined as a whole in its full context, rather than as a small snippet, followed by another snippet from another book, from another historical situation, from another Testament, the following week. I think it provides a greater depth of understanding of the book at hand, as its key points are often revisted, reinforced and explained in greater detail throughout its narrative.
I can see you points, but I prefer following the Calendar where each week leads into the next [or points ahead to Christmas / Easter / some other feast]. Perhaps it is a matter of preference? I am unsure.
The movement of the Church through the Liturgical Year is something I value highly. Each reading set for each Sunday has a particular message which relates to where we are at. I am wary of throwing this out for the sake of “understanding one book”. But that is my view.
[quote author="Tim Allen"]
Just on the last underlined sentence, I’m not sure I understand what you envisage - could you spell it out in a bit more detail for my dull brain?
I wasn’t clear, sorry. If people want series on a book, I think it would be good if, say they were doing Ephesians, to have a reading from the OT as well. (1) To provide the balance, and (2) to reaffirm we are people of both Testaments.
Regarding your comment to Dan:
I recognise Jesus’ words to the effect that fasting is not prohibited, so it’s something we’re free to do - I just have trouble understanding what it helps achieve.
I do hope persons wiser than me can answer. As Dan pointed out, Jesus did not say “if” you fast, but “when”. So I would not so much say it “is not prohibited” as say “it is expected”. And your Colossians post refers to “human precepts and teachings” - the “Whenever you fast” command came from Jesus.
I think Dan answered fairly well, but then as someone who wants to fast, I may be reading his posts from a different view to yourself.
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