G’day Hannah,

I want to question your use of humble here in this statement.

In my experience I find that Christian guys seem to be one of two main types. Either they’re the leaders (by personality, whether they are humble and godly or not) who are extroverted, confident and assertive, or they are quieter, more humble, more sensitive and more gentle - not “blokes” (cringe)!

I think there is a lot of misuse of the word humble in Christian circles.

Someone is humble if they are doing what God has called them to do, and to be what God has called them to be, and bringing their thinking into line with Gods ways and not their own.

The most extroverted person in the world can also be at the same time a very humble person, as well as a quiet person, also both the extrovert and quiet person can also not be humble, if they are not doing what God has called them to do.

Just wondering what you mean by the word humble when talking about masculinity?

craig

G’day Craig,

Look, I agree with everything you say. But the reality is that there is something about church that is turning blokes off. I’m suggesting that it has a soft and effeminate image.

The pentys are much better at this than the Anglicans, I should add. CLC used to have car days, a motorbike club etc to get the blokes in…

At our church us blokes get together and over winter go and cut firewood, a few of us are doing so on Wednesday, want to come?

I think often we wear these dirty big masks to church and are frightened of being who we really are, and so we water it down a bit, also I think far too often there is preached a sanitised version of the Scriptures and in the minds of most men they have the perception that Christianity is for woosies instead of being a tough propisition, for instance I’m reading about Hudson Taylor at the moment, one hell of a guy, in a tough enviroment…

The Lighthouse Church in Wollongong had a lot to do with my christian walk today, I remember taking two mates of mine down there who were not Christians, one of them had both ears pierced (1999) and there was a bunch of tough, rough looking bikies who really spoke to to him in a way that he would not have listened to others. (They were really gentle giants)

I think we need to recognise as well Craig that the way a lot of ministry is run to men will depend on the culture of the man and his background. Eg; if you come from a uni background and have bought into the who P.C. thing, then you will obviously minister to those blokes different then you would to those who haven’t bought into the P.C.....as well as what is culturally relevant, eg, for those invovled with the church you go to in Sydney, they most probably would not be interested in getting together with a bunch of blokes to cut firewood, even possible they would even be against the whole idea of cutting up trees for home heating?

While for your group going to the pub next door is a great way of fellowship, for our congregation, it is something we just would not do, though we don’t frown upon it and many enjoy a beer at social events.

Blessings craig

Great post Han!

[quote author="Craig Schwarze"]We must recover an authentic masculinity in the church if we are to attract men. Modern society has been very emasculating. The church is seen as doubly-so - the stereotypical picture of our Lord is “Gentle Jesus, meek and mild.”

Craig, I think I understand with what you’re getting at, but there’s so many iffy assumptions here it’s hard to agree with the overall premise of your argument. (What exactly is “authentic masculinity” anyway?)

There has been a lot written about gender roles in our society in the press of late, with one argument saying that once upon a time men were the breadwinners and foundations of the family unit, whereas now they’re more an optional extra needed to conceive children and not much else. Instead of Eve being created to be Adam’s helper, Adam is now Eve’s helper, and a pretty mediocre one at that… or so the argument goes.

Whether this is actually the case or not is debateable, but lets say there’s an element of truth to the argument. Let’s also make sure we remember that this is not our society per se - I think its true we’re more influenced by our culture than we give credit for - but nevertheless we are talking about other people, non-Christians with no real purpose, meaning or direction in life. None of the things that we as Christians take for granted.

Christian masculinity should be a reaction to this. It should not be the same. It should be radically different.

So, while I don’t have anything against..

We need to show that is ok to be a Christian man and like hot cars, boxing, loud rock, paint ball and big hits on the footy. Its ok to be a Christian man and be thrilled by the battle scene in Gladiator.

.. I think its a worry if we start defining Christian “masculinity” by what men do for entertainment. Surely this is an oddly Western problem, where we’re so caught up in what entertainment we consume we begin to define ourselves by it, and lo and behold discover there’s not much meaning or purpose there.

If Christian men are feeling so confused and struggling for a sense of identity that they have to turn to rather naff (imo) Western cultural stereotypes to discover what ‘being a man’ is about, then we’re in a lot more trouble than we think. Besides, in a nation where male suicide and alcohol abuse are prevalent (and, some would say, general mediocrity) what exactly are we hoping to learn from these cultural stereotypes?

That’s not to say there isn’t a problem there. To speculate for a bit, I think what people are trying to express with their dissatisfaction of Christian masculinity is more a lack of identity or sense or purpose. Its kind of a Western masculinity (which is a sham in itself) stripped of the “fun” parts, which for the younger set is getting trashed every weekend and trying to pick up (no, not my idea of a good time either!).

If this cultural norm is ultimately lonely and alienating for the secular man, how much more so is it for the Christian man?

Well, as alienating as we make it, imo.

If you want to ‘find’ yourself (ugh), go do something that is actually risky and hard. Go to the mission field.

We have it so easy, we coast along working our guts out for no real reason other than to consume more pointless goods, then turn around and wonder why it all fell apart. We are, more often than not, either too lazy or too busy to stay fit, end up overweight or obese and dying of heart disease or another preventable disease.

With a life of so few challenges or demands (beyond what we can/cannot ‘like’) no wonder people, men in particular, are struggling or a sense of identity.

With so much to see, so much to do, so much to enjoy, so much to learn, so much to be thankful for and so much suffering to be a part of, as someone who can’t do all that much right now it absolutely blows my mind as to why people frit away their lives on the pointless triviality we’re force fed..

I like Craig B’s definition of ‘true’ manliness though. I think we need to be able to articulate a definition of Christian masculinity that is meaningful, purposeful, enjoyable and satisfying. There are more than a few hints in the bible as has been pointed out in this thread, but is there a communication gap between what’s said in the bible and what men are actually experiencing? If so, why? What can we do about it?

If Western life is devoid of challenge and therefore meaning, then we need to manufacture it. We need to set standards - difficult standards - and start living up to them and encouraging each other to do likewise.

A lot of the time this would mean saying no - no to all the pointless distractions, excessive workloads and questionable indulgences to focus on what actually matters. I just wish this was actually likely to happen, sadly I think that more often than not the massive pull of cultural medicrity is just too strong. But if there is a need for something better, then hopefully progress is not too far away.

Eldridges book “Wild at Heart” was spot on - though I concede some of the exegesis was poor. Is there something similar out there that handles the scripture a little better?

I don’t know, but some of the reviews at Amazon make is seem pretty dire. I think if people (of either gender) are looking for something challenging to give them a bit of a sense of purpose & direction, John Piper’s Don’t Waste Your Life would be an excellent start.

/end rant :)

Mr Schwartz.
what exactly do you think my type is?
Are you typecasting me?

And no I made no political comment about the Rambo films, Ronald Reagan did that many years ago.

Doing what is right is often hard but it needs to be done. Thats the test of Christian man or womanhood, not how you spend your leisure time. )Its one we all fail in too at times- myself perhaps more often then most, thanks to Gods grace given freely to sinners for the chance of a new start)

what exactly do you think my type is?
Are you typecasting me?

No.

And no I made no political comment about the Rambo films, Ronald Reagan did that many years ago.

Well, it is a shame that he politicised what are just meant to be escapist fantasies…

I feel I have been seriously straw-manned here. I said its ok for a Christian man to like Rambo and hot cars. Its been taken as if I said it should be compulsory.

The thread started with a question as to why there are so many more women than men in the church, and what can be done about it. I’ve attempted to explain part of the problem and offer a solution.

I would be very interested to hear other peoples analysis of this problem, and also any suggestions they have to address it…

I kinda own up to the position that you have to be yourself as hard as you can.
Definitions of manliness or whatever aside.
I agree with the ideas about making it OK to do blokey things, stereotyped or otherwise.
If you happen to be into football and beer then there should be no implied frowning upon such heathen activities by the church at large. (You can frown on football for all I care but leave the amber alone, OK!)
I am tempted to think that the claims of manliness being lost in the churches is somewhat true, but not cos womanliness has in some way taken over.
Instead I think that being Proper has taken over. That may mean different things in different churches, but it seems to always come down to a type of Christian version of the ancient Ford Pill Diet Chart (anyone remember that?). If you didn´t fit the cut out shape (female and slim) then you needed their pills!
Christian men are allowed to talk footie but not loudly nor with enthusiasm( there is an alternative position; where they are allowed to talk footie but they must do so loudly and with more gusto than necessary) . Boxing is universally condemned and car races are out on the basis of they are often a Sunday thing anyway.
If you have a beard then it has to be neat and trim. Ties and stuff are the peak to aim for and gentleness apparently means being soft. Or, as was kind of pointed out earlier, the men have the firm handshake (which implies a firm conviction) a steady look, commanding voice and a ¨look¨ which makes me cringe in pity and fear. (Pity cos the poor buggers are often trapped in a disguise that they can´t get out of, and fear cos a conversation is gonna lead to awkward moments where I just know I am gonna represent a new problem to be solved).
I really don´t mind when a bloke is soft and gentle, if that is the way he really is. Nor do I care if he is loud and brash, as long as that is the way he really is. But this Ford Pill approach gets right up my nose.
A priest at a church once suggested I could come to the Tuesday bible studies.
Can´t, I have Karate training that night. (says I)
Well, you need to sort out your priorities.
I have. (shocked look from Priest and I rolled eyes and walked off)
He was trying to make me fit a mold. You had to lose your sports and other stuff cos there was a church thing to do. Not a big thing but certainly an erosion.

Know what I mean?

[quote author="Craig Schwarze"] just meant to be escapist fantasies…

What does this mean?

What is being escaped from?

What is being fantasized about?

[quote author="Gordon Cheng"][quote author="Craig Schwarze"] just meant to be escapist fantasies…

What does this mean?

What is being escaped from?

What is being fantasized about?

Well, the “escape” is from tame modern culture. The fantasy is the classic heroic archetype, facing danger alone, overcoming massive odds with courage and strength.

And also lots of explosions and guns. Lots of guys like those as well…

Yeah!
Not so much the guns, but gimme some swords and spears and blood all over the place (I never grew up)

I should qualify my resopnse. “Rambo” was pure escapism. But I think “First Blood” (the book at least) was meant to be somewhat of a serious comment on military veterans…

Rambo the book certainly was a comment on Vietnam and its legacy; particularly how the vets were mistreated by being sent there, then mistreated on their return.
The subsequent movies were crap.

I thought “First Blood” was a pretty fair movie. “Rambo” was ok. The third movie was dreadful - just tedious.

*chews on some raw steak*

[quote author="Mark Duval"]*chews on some raw steak*

Good job! We need more of it… ;-)