G’day,

Angela said:

How can you invite a male friend to hear the gospel at church or an evangelistic event if they are time poor? Or how can a Christian man leave his office at 5.30pm for bible study later that evening when there’s more work to do and others are staying back to help complete the work?

Good questions Angela, and these are the sorts of questions that I started asking when I first started at Minchinbury where this is a big issue. The answer that we came up with was to provide lots of options and not to expect people to fit into our structures.

One of the outcomes of this is that our 6pm service is the same as the 10am one in that it is family friendly (it has cheche and Sunday School). The outcome of this is that it has provided an avenue for people to be able to do things like go to sport, renovations, visit relatives etc (and for many Sunday is the only day they can do this) and still be meeting with God’s people and listening to his Word.

We have tried to apply a similar principle with our Bible Study Groups. Last year I started an afternoon group which has worked wonders for those who start work early in the morning and who thus find night groups to be hard work.

The one group of people that I haven’t figured a solution out for are those who do shift work and whose shift patterns are not static. Has anyone thought through this issue?

So in concluding, flexibility is a word that more and more churches need to get familiar with. This means hard work for ministry teams but we have to do whatever it takes to present people perfect in Christ on the final day.

Yours in Christ,
Mark

edit: spelling & grammar

Onya Mark
Flexibility is the key!
But, as you have done, coupled with real consultation.

G’day Mark

The one group of people that I haven’t figured a solution out for are those who do shift work and whose shift patterns are not static. Has anyone thought through this issue?

You could try networking with other Churches in the area and see if those men / women can form there own group with the flexibilities needed.

Whilst one church may not have enough people to run a group in the catagory you mentioned, many various congregations may have the same type of problem.

You could find the relevant people in the various church groups who could run one and have those groups made known - flexibility is the key.

craig

Edit My wife goes to two bible study groups, our own church study group and one that she has been going to for the last 7 years which is made up of women who all go to different churches. Edit

c

Where are the men

Owen Atkins said, “I think there is something prohibitive in the OZ male psyche re church”
I have always being conscious of the low numbers of men at church, so here is my two cents worth of solutions.All people, especially men, want to explain what it is all about. Even the cave man worshipped a mountain god in many cases.So it should be easy to get men into church.
I think that the inhibiting factor is that women run the church, as they do most important social structures.I have no problem with this, I love women and they can be good managers.The problem may be that men are becoming more aware of this. To sum up----women complain about being treated like slaves; men complain about being treated like cattle.
It is a mystery of life that men appear to be running things. Most frontmen in the church, especially priests , are really the captives of women. This touchs on the phenomenon of the battle of the sexes which is a real no no to discuss. But I can’t help one last comment that the real battle of the sexes is between the women who have and the women who haven’t. Men just adorn the place and get the blame. That’s why men don’t go to to church.

But I can’t help one last comment that the real battle of the sexes is between the women who have and the women who haven’t. Men just adorn the place and get the blame. That’s why men don’t go to to church.

Methinks I hear the distant sound of drums.
Time to leave Gunga Din!

flexibilility [sic]

Mark, our previous minister [we don’t have one now, but are praying someone will come out to Bathurst and lead us soonish] noticed I couldn’t attend the Men’s bible study, as I work in the late arvos and early evenings as a piano teacher, so he arranged for me to meet him in the day time when I was free.

We dusted off our Greek NTs and had a ball.

Re: Where are the men?

[quote author="Luke Stevens"]I read Jane Tooher’s review of “Single Women: Challenge to the Church?” in the Jan 04 Briefing, which was interesting as Are our churches male-unfriendly?

not very much I think,

Is church and the way its practised here, inherently unappealing to men in our society

and hence so is the gospel? (Or vice versa?)

Is this the case at your church?

yes, in Tehran - Iran we have a big hall for all people, and another one at the second floor which always we make it specific for single women, because in the main hall we have not sufficient place for them, and as a permanent beholder I can say there is a diagram for our church as yours. in oweral you can find more than 600 people in one weekly homilty in Fridays afternoon. which I think there are about 400 women in them.

I think its probably about right for mine (which is small and skewed towards uni age ppl). In any case the females seem far more cohesive on the whole than the males, which are a bit all over the place (me included).
I’m not sure what the answer is, but whatever it is, its not what we are doing now!

let me put my feet in your shoes a moment please! i am a simple member in church, but If I were an evangelist, I would search again in my heart and my own life, more and more,to know one thing: what is between me and my Lord, is my message very useful for my listners? if I want to announce the gosple, I have to be holy in my life and my mind both.
on my opinion , there is not enough for an evangelist to have a lightened mind in himself, but he has to have a powerful and close relation to his Lord, in other word, I think that an evangelist has to be a prophet and everytime before an speach, has a private time with his Lord to ask him about his message and his listeners too. in this way he can has a leadership form his Lord during his allocution.
I hope your church is as the same, but if you can not find the problem in a debrief from the women who their husbands do not participate in meetings, you can see my opinion more serious.
Your brother in Christ
mousa

Christ is coming

Interesting that this has come up again, given all of the posting recently about gender.

We must recover an authentic masculinity in the church if we are to attract men. Modern society has been very emasculating. The church is seen as doubly-so - the stereotypical picture of our Lord is “Gentle Jesus, meek and mild.”

In fact, Jesus is a really strong, ballsy sort of guy IMO. There’s also a tiny bit of a larrikan in him as well. We need to look at the strong masculine role models in the bible and celebrate their strength.

We need to show that is ok to be a Christian man and like hot cars, boxing, loud rock, paint ball and big hits on the footy. Its ok to be a Christian man and be thrilled by the battle scene in Gladiator.

Its ok to watch “Rambo”. Its ok to drink beer. Its ok to be daring, adventurous, (sensibly) aggressive. Its ok to be a man. When we start encouraging our men to be men, I believe we’ll get a few more in the church.

Eldridges book “Wild at Heart” was spot on - though I concede some of the exegesis was poor. Is there something similar out there that handles the scripture a little better?

[quote author="Craig Schwarze"]Its ok to watch “Rambo”. Its ok to drink beer. Its ok to be daring, adventurous, (sensibly) aggressive. Its ok to be a man. When we start encouraging our men to be men, I believe we’ll get a few more in the church.

I hope you’re not suggesting that drinking beer is part of being a man. I think most of what you describe here is based on cultural archetypes and the way in which men are portrayed in the media - it’s not necessarily a reflection of what it means to be a Man of God ("God’s man, through and through”?)

I dont think drinking beer is essential to being a man - I dont drink alcohol myself. But a lot of men do, so its important we say its ok…

I agree a lot of the stuff is stereotyped. But a lot of guys are into that stuff. Again, we have to say its ok…

I also hope you will say it is acceptable for men to not like those things.

In particular I hope it is acceptable to loathe the Rambo movies and all they stand for, when you consider Stallone was a draft dodger who hid in Switzerland teaching in a girls school while honest decent men were being killed in the swamps and forests of Vietnam, in a war that was not wrong but fought in the wrong way and for the wrong reasons (by not wrong consider this question: where would you prefer to live Taiwan or PRC, South or North Korea?). To have him portrayed as the great American warrior is a condemnation of what is wrong in America.

I also hope you will say it is acceptable for men to not like those things.

Of course its not wrong to dislike those things. The problem is, in the church, your side has had all the airplay. We need guys to know that the more stereotypical masculinity is ok in the church as well…

In particular I hope it is acceptable to loathe the Rambo movies and all they stand for, when you consider Stallone was a draft dodger who hid in Switzerland teaching in a girls school while honest decent men were being killed in the swamps and forests of Vietnam, in a war that was not wrong but fought in the wrong way and for the wrong reasons (by not wrong consider this question: where would you prefer to live Taiwan or PRC, South or North Korea?). To have him portrayed as the great American warrior is a condemnation of what is wrong in America.

I think you are reading too much politics into the Rambo trilogy! Its really about guns and guys and the heroic archetype.

Anyway, the politics of “First Blood” were very different from the other 2 - it was about veteran disenfranchisement and small town prejudice…

G’day Craig,

I think that for many blokes in Oz, even those who wouldn’t know what a bit of malley scrub looks like, have a romantic picture of themselves being able to look after themselves and live of the land if need be.

I think true manliness is one who is comfortable with his identity, being himself and not try and be someone he is not, not trying to fit in with others perceptions of who they think he should be, or who he thinks they think he should be. :)

I am saying this within Christian principles and boundries, I recently read a book about a world war one chaplain, “Fighting McKenzie” who could out box any soldier who took him on, and a larriken to boot, led many to the Lord. A great story and one that I think we should all read.

craig

[quote author="Craig Schwarze"]We need to show that is ok to be a Christian man and like hot cars, boxing, loud rock, paint ball and big hits on the footy. Its ok to be a Christian man and be thrilled by the battle scene in Gladiator.

Its ok to watch “Rambo”. Its ok to drink beer. Its ok to be daring, adventurous, (sensibly) aggressive. Its ok to be a man.

Guess I’ve got the gift of singleness then...!

Does that mean that those who don’t like and do these things are not men? Or that those who do, are?

[quote author="Craig Schwarze"]When we start encouraging our men to be men, I believe we’ll get a few more in the church.

And when we start hearing non-sporting analogies (if we must have them) in sermons, I believe we’ll get a more diverse and engaged group.

Isn’t it about encouraging each one to be who God wants them to be, regardless of stereotypes (whether they be gender or location based, or anything else)?

[quote author="Craig Schwarze"]I dont think drinking beer is essential to being a man - I dont drink alcohol myself. But a lot of men do, so its important we say its ok…

I agree a lot of the stuff is stereotyped. But a lot of guys are into that stuff. Again, we have to say its ok…

No, we don’t have to say anything is okay. We have to explain the Bible in such a way that people learn what God says is right and wrong.

For some, that means that drinking alcohol (for example) is not okay - so for them to do so would be wrong. Others, however, can do so with a clear conscience, so for them, yes, it is okay.

I think I see the point you are trying to make, Craig, but I don’t think it should be made on the basis of interests and activities, rather on the character traits you’re trying to represent.

For example, why not say “we need to encourage men to be strong and courageous leaders” (or “daring, adventurous and (sensibly) aggressive"), if that’s what those activities are supposedly representative of? Why not include supporting Scriptures to explain why these attributes are important (if they are for all males)?

[quote author="Craig Schwarze"]We need guys to know that the more stereotypical masculinity is ok in the church as well…

Yes, but…

In my experience I find that Christian guys seem to be one of two main types. Either they’re the leaders (by personality, whether they are humble and godly or not) who are extroverted, confident and assertive, or they are quieter, more humble, more sensitive and more gentle - not “blokes” (cringe)!

Those in the former group often need to train themselves to practice humility, kindness and sensitivity. They need to think about how others feel rather than choose to be oblivious to the impact they are having.

Those in the latter group may need to be encouraged to be more confident and display those character traits more overtly (although since true leadership is about being a servant, I see it demonstrated more in those who quietly and humbly serve others without praise, acknowledgement or encouragement). So I say “may” as I’m not sure…

Ultimately, it is better to have a sensitive, wise and godly man than a lumbering boofhead who doesn’t think before he acts. If a man loves God, grows in maturity and applies God’s word to his life, and happens also to love Rambo, beer and footy, good. If he loves God, grows in maturity and applies God’s word to his life, and happens also to love art, music and conversation, good. Does it matter who likes what, if the result is that each are godly men, who are simply unique individuals with different personalities?

BTW Josh, I’m stole your word (boofhead) because it’s the one I’m looking for, not because I am implying anything about you!

So yes, I think the “more stereotypical masculinity” is okay in the church, in the sense that Mr Stereotypical Male should feel welcome to come along. However, that doesn’t mean that Mr Non-Stereotypical Male should feel under any pressure to fit the stereotype. We should be encouraging Biblical masculinity for both parties.

[quote author="Craig Bennett"]I think true manliness is one who is comfortable with his identity, being himself and not try and be someone he is not, not trying to fit in with others perceptions of who they think he should be, or who he thinks they think he should be. :)

I think true manliness is “a man after God’s own heart” - constantly seeking to be and practicing being who God wants him to be.

Thoughts?
Han

Heya Craig,

Look, I agree with everything you say. But the reality is that there is something about church that is turning blokes off. I’m suggesting that it has a soft and effeminate image.

The pentys are much better at this than the Anglicans, I should add. CLC used to have car days, a motorbike club etc to get the blokes in…