This topic has concerned me for a while, and it resurfaced when I read this in AM’s “Positions Vacant & Classifieds”:

Team Leaders - Willoughby Anglican Church

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The HR Team
Willoughby Anglican Church
211 Mowbray Rd,
Willoughby

(I mean no offence or anything similar towards Willoughby Anglican Church - I provide it as an example)

“Team Leader"..."HR Team”...these terms [and similar “corporate” terms] seem to have been creeping into churches with greater speed throughout the mid to late 90s, and today.

What are people’s views on this?

In one sense, I do believe that some corporate structure may be useful in the church, i.e. the formation of small groups to look after various ministries. 

On the other hand, seeing terms such as “Team Leader” makes me shudder: surely there is no need to go to “corporate speak” [or perhaps it is the best term available].  What worries me is not so much the terminology but the flow-on effects: e.g. I have seen various ministries canned as there were not the numbers; I have seen a great desire for “profitable” [cash wise] ministries.  I understand a church needs money to survive, but I find in today’s churches especially - where there are a larger number of white-collar and university-graduate members - that business speak and the model of church “just being another business” is quite popular.

Thoughts?

God bless,
Ian.

Good series of questions Ian.

I think it is OK to use terms such as “Team Leader”, as long as they still fall into the same catagory as the Biblical Term.

2 of the gifts of the Spirit are leadership & administration, so those with those gifts need to do those things.

Jesus spoke the language of the day, spoke using common stories and events, using the plain english of the day - so did the Apostles.

What worries me though, and I am seeing a tendancy towards this creep in, even in our Mission Goal much seems to be doing church in the power of man, and not in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Every great move of God I have read about in history was preceded by the men and women of God spending a great deal of time on their knees before God, the leaders were busy calling the people of God to come and pray together on a regular extended basis.

We tend to clap ourselves on our back if we manage to get through a 3 - 6 hour prayer vigil during Easter

craig

Well, on the one hand I think “bring it on”, on the other I realise we need to do whatever best glorifies God & reflects our joy in him (thanks John Piper!). Sometimes the two will be compatible, sometimes they wont be. However I tend to think we can learn a lot at little cost from the corporate world - they spend the time and $ researching, implementing, testing & failing, so we should be able to pick off the best 5% of what works and run with it.

There was an excellent article on leadership from the 12/03 Briefing by the late David Andrew which I’ve been meaning to post:

Is our leadership too professional?

Its well worth a read, some very clear thinking there, and plenty of interesting questions. Would be interested to hear what people think about it. I’ll read their review of Piper’s book “Brothers, we are not Professionals” too and see what that’s about :)

The Briefing has been getting a sorry mention recently...I’m still reading through John Woodhouse’s articles on denomationalism.

Dear Ian

Such thinking is not compatible with church structure.

It reflects I think our failure to examine the world with the mind of Christ, and change our thinking. Instead we let the world affect our christian mind.

I know that we need to have organisers, and people trained in the corporate world would have developed skills in that regard, but the problem is the otehr thinking that comes along with it and does not belong.

God ordains his people with gifts the way He wishes, and this does not necessarily reflect the way the world thinks (1 Cor.1:19, 2:4, Rom.11:33 etc).

I disagree David, many things in the world are inherently neutral - its the purposes for which they are used that determines whether they are of the world or not. A Christian mind that chooses not to critically evaluate the techniques, skills and methods on offer would be an ignorant mind, and I think that would be incompatible with our calling.

Luke, I did not suggest to reject them out of hand. I have had some experience with the corporate approach myself.

Nor do i suggest uncritical thinking. My point was we don’t do enough of it, and too readily accept what the world offers. Nor are we sufficiently discerning about our own or other churches’ ways of doing things.

I am not here referring to anglican churches only.

[quote author="David Ashton"]I have had some experience with the corporate approach myself.

Right - I take it this wasn’t a good experience?

Yes and no Luke. But that is not the point.

The point is the world view that goes with the method can be inappropriate for use in churches.

[quote author="David Ashton"]The point is the world view that goes with the method can be inappropriate for use in churches.

Hmm, but David, there are a lot of things developed by the “corporate world” that are very useful for the church.  Microphones for instance.  The internet, for another.  Just because the method is from the management arena dosen’t mean it is incompatible with the church. 

I think that professional management is a wonderous thing for a church.  Where it falls down is when the management takes the focus away from Christ.

[quote author="Rowen Atkinson"]Hmm, but David, there are a lot of things developed by the “corporate world” that are very useful for the church.  Microphones for instance.  The internet, for another.  Just because the method is from the management arena dosen’t mean it is incompatible with the church. 

I think that professional management is a wonderous thing for a church.  Where it falls down is when the management takes the focus away from Christ.

Great point, Rowen (and Luke): and one I missed.  I am (was? - am ;-)) generaly fairly anti-corporate in church, but things such as microphones and the Internet have been of use [though, I still shudder at Powerpoint presentations with waterfalls and blue text for the choruses so you can’t read the words!!! ;-)]

As you said, it is when “management takes the focus away from Christ”.  I suppose that is what I was more concerned what in raising this topic: I 100% agree with David’s statement that sometimes churches rush into “management” or “corporate” modes, and get consumed by them - and that was one of the point I hoped to discuss here.

for example: that “7 Highly Effective Methods” book that came out: it was prescribed reading if you wanted to be involved in a ministry at church, and was read during Parish Council [if we weren’t a low church, I’d have been waiting for the day where we stood as it was brought in!!! ;-)]. 

Then there was that church [Willow Creek, I think, though I may be mistaken] that put out a book stating how they grew, which to me had a very corporate style [though I’m happy they grew and I am sure the intentions were fine].  What was not good, in my opinion, was that many churches (generally evangelical in my experience) grabbed on to this as the panacea for declining attendance and, perhaps ironically enough ignoring a corporate rule, did not tailor it to the local situation.  A few ministries at an old church of mine started to collapse due to this, but we could not question “the Book”.  Thankfully things have changed now and the ministries are flourishing.

I realise this may have not happened everywhere, and as it was part of my experience I may have projected it and thought of it happening everywhere.  I hope it provides some background to my concerns.

God bless,
Ian.

hmmm....

The negative perceptions of these posts seems to be implying an evil corporate vs good church argument - and I’m worried that some could end up throwing out the baby with the bath water…

As an aside: I think the increase in “management” techniques is partly due to the American influence on our churches. Case in point: check out the (often appalling) books available on the issue at some bookstores.

However, I think we seem to have this view that our senior ministers/ministers etc can do everything. This is patently not true - and I think it implys a dodgy theology of how we view our ordained/paid leaders. Aren’t we all to be servants? And not just those that are paid?

An example - say a church is looking to employ someone. Why do we assume that the senior minister has both the time and skills to write and place an ad, conduct interviews, check references etc etc?

Now imagine that within the church, three people had experience in HR and recruitment - wouldnt it be great if they helped the senior minister with the process?

Perhaps the Willoughby “HR Team” (which promted this post) is doing something similar?

Maybe some corporate influences are good....

We weren’t talking about physical things like microphones!

We were talking about attitudes and ways of thinking.

One of the areas of divergence is the issue of authority - how it is structured, who gets it, and how it operates.

Authority in the church is to operate only as servanthood, whereas in the corporate world authority operates quite differently.

In Victorian times the positions of authority often went to “professional” or wealthy people, rather than to those who had the spiritual ordination God makes through his Spirit. The hierachy of authority of the world - royalty, nobility, gentry, and commoners also imposed itself on the church, along with notions of people’s worthiness which was usually based on that person’s wealth or position in society.

In the aftermath of the Industrial Revolution, when the popualtion of England shifted from being mainly rural to mainly urban (in the space of about 50 years), church attendance fell off. People working in the factories lived on poverty wages. They often stopped going to church because their clothes were too poor, ie not “respectable”. Church attendance began to change when the Methodists started working in the working class areas and stressed salvation by faith rather than social respectability.

Spiritual gifts are not organised in the world’s way, but God gives them as He sees fit, for the sake of the gospel. This can mean that a poorly educated person can have spiritual insight where a CEO may well not!

yes and no..  you se, many of the management methods that are being employed are simply tools, and can be used in a detrimental fashion, or can be used in the light of the gospel for god’s kingdom.

As an obvious example, corporate governance models being set up by business should be embraced wholehearteldy by the church.  Accountability in the way we handle finances is in no way a bad thing. 

The problem occurs when we use the tools without thinking of the goal, or if the use of the tool becomes a goal in and of itself.  That’s the only point at which the use of such a tool could be considered “attitudes and ways of thinking”.  I think the church should be free to use anything that work provoded it’s consistent with the aims of the gospel

Corporate Methods in Church

Jason, thanks for that link. How refreshing for Christ to get good press!

I have ALWAYS found that the best leaders were also very good servants. Sounds familiar doesn’t it? I feel like bursting into a heartfelt rendition of ‘The Servant King’.  But I digress (must be the Greek in me!).

Having worked in both the private and public sectors and seen, as well as experienced, many different corporate strategies/techniques/models, the boss who cared for his staff won the day, each & every day.

Imagine the corporate world adopting Christ-like servanthood at the heart of all its models/techniques.  Imagine a human resources training day which included the following bible passage from John 13: 2-17:

John 13:2-17 The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus.  Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist.  After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples’ feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?” Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.” “No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”
“Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!” Jesus answered, “A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.” For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.ohn 13:12 When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them.  “You call me `Teacher’ and `Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am.  Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.  I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

The gospel of Jesus really is transforming and radical and revolutionary for all types of relationships.  And the church is about relationship 1. between God and His people, 2. between Christians, 3. Christians introducing Jesus to their friends & family that don’t know Him as their Lord & Saviour.  Any corporate model that churches adopt must be examined in the light of the Christ’s example of servanthood, obedience, love, etc and in how it can serve the advancement of God’s kingdom in the life of believers and to an unsaved world.

I find Acts 6: 1-7 a helpful example, and one worthy of examination:

In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Grecian Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food. So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, “It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables.  Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word.” This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism.  They presented these men to the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them. So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.

Through delegation to godly men who could exercise pastoral skills, the others were freed to continue to spread the gospel.  Every one was pleased and a serious division was lovingly nipped in the bud.

The New testament is chock-a-block full of examples of issues, divisions/fractions and other people problems being addressed by the likes of Peter, Paul and John (almost typed Mary… not Jesus’ mother but the band ‘Peter, Paul & Mary’).

And what of the corporate model of the Godhead: one God yet three persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  That’s why the gospel of John is my favourite.  When Jesus talks of his relationship with His Father and His Father to Him, and later on about the Spirit......well my head starts to burst with the wonder & majesty & harmony & intimacy & perfection & greatness of it all.

Most of all I am grateful to our amazing God who at one point in space-time history dealt with the whole world’s sin: past & present & future, in the death and resurrection of His Son. Now that’s a corporate model that can’t be beat!

I’ve gone off on all sorts of tangents in my post.  Not very co-herent. My only excuse is that since all the members in my family have recovered from their various ailments, I’ve gone berserk and have been madly posting.  And enjoying myself.....and I haven’t had any chocolate.... True...Cross my heart......Off to sleep.

cheers
Angela