Are we as born-again Christians one of God’s elect? 
23 December 2008 3:28pm
26 posts
  [ Ignore ]

Are we as born-again Christians one of God’s elect?
Hosea 4 says that God’s people are destroyed for lack of knowledge [I believe this means knowledge about God].
Mark 13:22-23 warns that false Christs and false prophets will rise showing signs and wonders, and deceive and seduce, if it was possible, even the elect.
In verse 23 Jesus told us to take ye heed, so we better take heed and be on the watch out for Satan’s tricks.
It appears to me from Hosea and Mark that some Christians will be deceived and seduced by Satan.
Are we, as truly born-again Christians, God’s elect already?
How would we become one of God’s elect?
Have we been greatly deceived by Satan in some way so as not to be God’s elect?
My husband believes so and ‘sees’ many Christians as being ‘of the world’ as opposed to being ‘in the world but not of the world’ [expression probably comes from John 17:14].
I know some Christians who believe that they will not be deceived by false Christs, false signs, false wonders and deceptive doctrines etc. They basically consider themselves as immune from deception, as if they have been given an “anointing” to not be deceived.
Kristine

   
23 December 2008 6:46pm
200 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]

Hi Kristine

Ephesians is written to christians – those who are trusting in Christ for their righteousness. They are reminded of the great spiritual blessings we have in Christ (none of which we deserved, we were his enemies), including God choosing us ….

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.  In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.(from Ephesians 1)

As I understand the scriptures, (in particular the book of Hebrews and 2 Peter) once we are in Christ, we are then to keep on going in Christ and take notice of the warnings given in scripture that encourage us not to be deceived and lured away from Christ. He is faithful and trustworthy.

From Hebrews 2…..Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?

I realise I have not addressed all your questions, but ask away.
I will keep thinking about your questions. Others may also have comments.

Cheers Di

   
23 December 2008 10:44pm
26 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]

Thanks Dianne. Those are lovely scriptures for us as born-again Christians. Yes I agree when we are in Christ we are to keep on going in Christ. He is faithful and trustworthy, yes - very comforting.

For those Christians who wilfully sin ‘in a big way’ [I know we all sin and ‘in a big way’ might not be a good choice of words], I mean those Christians who purposely and continually commit adultery, fornication, steal, lie, hurt people, commit fraud etc, I believe God will deal with them; >> if they commit a ‘big’ sin as a once off, say during a moment of weakness, and then repent it will be much better for them as far as God is concerned, but if they continually or habitually sin ‘big time’, God may deal with them severely. I don’t see habitual ‘big time’ sinners as being God’s elect. I see these Christians as being more open to deception by Satan and reaping the consequences of their deliberate sin. As I said, it’s probably not a good way to talk about sin as big, or small, because deliberate pornographic web viewing might not compare to murder etc, but it is still serious in God’s eyes and can blind Christians to God’s leading and reduce God’s blessings for them.
Christians who are serious about their faith and walk with God, who regularly worship, serve and pray, who study the scriptures and His laws as found in the scriptures, who aim to please and obey Him, who give unselfishly, who take notice of the warnings given in scripture, are these His elect?
Or are His elect those of this group of Christians who have not been deceived ‘big time’ by Satan?  Where am I going with this?

From my husband’s knowledge of law, and the scriptures, and if he is correct, then almost all Christians, including those in leadership, have been deceived ‘big time’ by Satan - and I’ll come to this in due time.  If he is correct then maybe there aren’t many elect in God’s eyes. I’m not saying he is correct but a lot of what he says makes good sense and it does take some serious thinking outside of the box. He meticulously records information and backs up all statements in his notes.
Most Christians would probably never consider themselves as being able to be deceived big time, because someone in the church would wake up to the deception and warn everyone else. But maybe they are wrong.

Consider Holy matrimony [there are two other major deceptions that my husband talks about – but not now].  There is a thread on this web site, although not very active now, titled “Should the state control marriage?” Without going into it just now, what if, as my husband says, putting your Christian-marriage/Holy-matrimony covenant under the jurisdiction of the Comm. Gov. is a most serious breach of God’s law so as to make it comparable with adultery?  If this is true then there are major problems in all churches as far as God is concerned.
Whether you agree with this or not, just suppose he is correct, then it would show the magnitude of Satan’s deception, or, maybe the blindness or lack of knowledge of most Christians. It would show the seriousness of what many adult Christians do, that is, sign a Commonwealth Gov. marriage certificate soon after they have made vows to each other, and to and before God. It would put these Christians in the class of ‘of the world’.

I’ll stop there for now. Maybe I should have given this thread another name.

   
24 December 2008 12:54pm
26 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]

I think I’ll transfer my discussion over to the thread ‘Should the state control marriage?’ and move onto my husband’s other concerns later on.
If there is truth in what my husband says about Christians breaching the Holy matrimony covenant when they sign the marriage certificate, then it may spark a new interaction with the existing participants.

   
26 December 2008 12:31pm
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309 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]

[Hi Kristine - I thought I’d double post this one, in case some people read this thread only - post any replies to the other thread if you have one]

Kristine

You clearly take your husband’s deep consideration of these areas very seriously, which shows the measure of love you must have for him.  They are very detailed views, and betray a great deal of time and effort in their formulation.  However, one thing that concerns me a little is the aparent rigidity of his views regarding the validity of laws of the commonwealth of australia, as opposed to laws of the states.  If your husband holds the view that the laws of the commonwealth government are invalid for the reasons you have expressed on his behalf, then could I query what his views are on laws of the states?  The usual rejections of commonwealth laws (and there have been a few challenges run in the high court along similar grounds (all unsuccessful)) tend not to similarly challenge the laws of the former colonies, which were adoptions of or even mere maintanance of the then in force laws of the United Kingdom (for ease of reference I’ll call it English statute law, using your husband’s denotation of the phrase). 

Accordingly, Australia (as a nation) ended up with either the old English statute law [assuming your husband;s objections to be correct] or has the state statute law (assuming he allows validity to the state statute laws).

Either way, we end up at the position that the common law (the formal term for the “law” referred to by your husband) is the background substratum to Australian/state law.  The common law was, and still is to a large extent, derived from the courts set up in opposition to the ecclesiastical (or church) courts of the first third of the last millenia in the United Kingdom.  While the common law does reflect largey biblical principles it does not import biblical principles into it.  The ecclesiastical courts were the courts of church law, and the common law courts imported their principles by parity of reasoning from majority community view which then was a predominanty christian (of some description, leaving aside the whole reformation debate and similar theological dramas occuring then contemporaneously) position.

One of the more spectacular examples of common law is the case of Donahue v Stevenson (the snail in the bottle case), which the judge expressly said in his judgment was based upon musings upon the golden law, ie, do unto others.  That piece of common law has spawned the massive tort law damages debacles besetting the american system (which country, by the way, suffers the same fate with the validity of its federal laws as do we with our commonwealth as they are sourced from the same stream).  But I digress. 

While the common law echoes biblical principles in this matter they are not of themselves biblcal laws (as were the laws applied in the ecclesiastical courts).  This is one issue I see with your husband’s theories regarding the dichomoty between “statute law” and “the law”. 

The second issue I have is with his analysis of contractual principles.  For the most part, it is consistent with what Carter Harland Lindgren teach in their veritbale tome Contract Law, save for an absence of the doctrine of privity of contract.  The parties to a marriage certificate do not contract with the commonwealth government, they contract before the commonwealth government - very different propositions.  The former is with a party, the second is with a witness.  The commonwealth government merely witnesses the marriage act, not becomes a party to it. 

But even that aside, your questioning of these issues is encouraging to me, as God does not want mindless automatons blindly following the teachings of a “Church” [in its broad sense RIW and EHWB so don’t hijack this answer] but responsible creatures who willingly and thoughtfully consider his character and the demands being his creatures places upon us.  I just have a small concern that you are missing the forest for the trees - the minutiae of your husband’s positions is telling in its depth, and it seems to miss some of the overarching principles of legal philosophy, in particular, that laws are simply the rules a society agrees to live by and enforce amongst itself - nothing more sinister than that.  Could I ask you to ponder Mark Short’s answer, and focus instead on Jesus, who he is and what he teaches.  If English is a problem, then sidestep those arguments by learning koine greek (it’s not that hard, honestly - just many many hours of diligent learning which your husband has demonstrated in his notes referred to to date by you) and hebrew (which I will confess is damned difficult and I gave up during the first semester of it!).  Hear Jesus when he so tellingly calls himself YHWH in the phrase ego ami, hear him when he offers salvation to all who call on his name and his name alone, and hear the forgiveness and redemption he freely offers to all who trust in him and him alone for their salvation.  Treasure the irreducible and inalienable position those who trust in him have as co-heirs with the Son.  All else is as ecclesiastes says emptiness and a chasing after the wind.

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Rom 5:8

   
26 December 2008 9:09pm
535 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]

Just a quick note off topic.  To clarify the definition of born again Christian, Jesus said

John 3:3 “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again”

So all Christians are born again, there is no such thing as a Christian that is not born again.

   
27 December 2008 10:41pm
1311 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]

Craig Thacker you said:

So all Christians are born again, there is no such thing a a Christian that is not born again.

There are some denominations who think that one is born a Christian by being baptised or being part of that denomination, without trusting their lives truly to Jesus.

2 Peter 1:16-21 provides words which are clear and reliable reason for a Christian to be sure of their faith.

Christ’s Glory and the Prophetic Word
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” 18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.
19 And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.
21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Peter then goes on to warn against false teachers and the destruction that they will face.

Prior to that Peter asks us to make our calling and election sure:

2 Peter 1:3-4
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

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Our Father in heaven, hallowed is your name

   
29 December 2008 6:05pm
332 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]

Onya Ken!

Any reason why you stopped at 2 Peter1:4?  Could it be that verses 5-11 don’t fit with your ideas?  Peter is making it clear we justify our salvation through our works.  You might also note verse 9 where Peter talks about sins being washed away.  He is talking about baptism unless you believe the words are used allegorically. 

You might also check Romans 6:1-5, Ephesians 4:1-5, and particularly 1 Peter 3:21 “Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you”. 

Blind Freddy could see what the writer of 1 Peter was thinking.

Over to you Ken.

cheers

John

   
31 December 2008 12:20am
1311 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]

Hi Eric,

I dont disagree that the New Testament speaks about new believers going through baptism in water, as well as repentance of their sins. These seem to be the methods new Christians were made into new people. Born again, as it is written.

The verses I quoted are to point out how fortunate we are to have been able to be accepted as God’s children, through our faith in Jesus. That is because the thread is about this topic, and not about another topic.

kind regards, Ken

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Our Father in heaven, hallowed is your name

   
31 December 2008 12:30am
349 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Ken Austin - 31 December 2008 12:20 AM

Hi Eric,
...
kind regards, Ken

Ken, you flatter me!

Cheers,
Eric.