Andrew, while I have a lot of sympathy towards our common problems with militant Islam, you are the one that fixated on Israel. Sebastion just raised it in the same way a Tim LaHaye “End times” type might raise Israel’s gathering as some sort of fulfillment of prophecy.

(Which I find fascinating Sebastion, are you actually saying Israel’s gathering is a fulfillment of the Koran?)

So I take it that ultimately Islam DOES want to conquer the world for Allah. But that is not the issue. I’m asking you to watch your tendency to throw largely irrelevant mud around your own personal theological fixations. (EG: The “Happy Birthday to Israel” discussion ended up being DELETED because it became so off-topic.)

I’m trying to track down a fabulous talk from a Christian perspective on the slow-motion invasion of the Palestinian lands by the Jewish people that unfolded over the last 150 years. I’m trying to track it down for you… might take a few days and I’m going away for a bit.

Anyway, while I’m not being naive about the aims of Islam, I find it entirely consistent with your other theological obsessions that you are so defensive about the Jews in particular, and am not surprised that you want this thread to be dominated by that quite particular and specific angle when there is so much more to be discussed about the Bible and Islam.

But no, it’s all about trying to get to the truth! ;-)

Can we get back to the basics on militant Islam etc on a global perspective, and how we decide which is more believable? I personally find Mohammed has just shot himself in the foot with his clumsy handling of the history of Jesus execution, but maybe that’s just me. ;-)

Sebastion, just asserting something is true over and over again does not help me when Mohammed didn’t know history well enough to record that yes, Jesus was executed, and that IF Mohammed had some kind of religious experience telling him otherwise, maybe it was demonic in nature? Or drug induced?

Or the vision just didn’t happen and Mohammed was actually busy creating a bit of a power trip for himself as his life demonstrates and as happens in so many other cults? (Jonestown, Waco texas, etc.) Only his succeeded in a manner far more profoundly than the Jonestown incident, and created an empire that dominated the Middle East for quite some time. But this is not surprising and has happened before. The Assyrians had their own belief systems, and took them with them as they invaded other lands, and the Babylonians likewise. Maybe I’ve got my history wrong, but weren’t the Persians the first empire to allow some level of “freedom of religion”, as well as the Greeks as they created vassal States? Anyway, Mohammed was a historical throwback of a more rigid theocratic military empire. Having a bit of a story around which to unite a bunch of disparate tribes always helps. ;-)

Thanks Dave...but I’m not going to engage like that.

Kind regards.

But the thing is you already have, and Sebastion, I and others are kind of asking you not to. Please.

Dave, with respect, you are not a moderator...although you love acting like one.

I am fully entitled to raise an issue like Israel as it DIRECTLY pertains to Islam, the Koran, the history of Mohammed dealing with Jews/Christians, the Muslims’s current behaviour in the world to Israel etc. There are no rules as to what content can be included in a thread, and if there are, as I have said earlier, I am happy to take counsel from an OFFICIAL moderator.

Your comment about my bias to a a certain theological position is no different what so ever to your green theology, is it? I wonder what other people think about your attack on me over this, when you spend a lot of time upholding a very strong eco view within a Christian context!

Besides, as this is a Christian forum, it makes sense that certain theological/eschatolical views be canvassed IF they cross the subject. Islam and Israel have a very very close affinity - both historically (Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc), plus the current world events.

And no, I am not wishing to extend this discussion forum into Israel. I just wished to use the subject to see what Sebastian’s view was on the teaching of the Koran towards Jews. The Holocaust was a test question only - not an entre into a major new thread.

I have been courteos to Sebastian, which my posts can attest, and I have asked his permission to ask my questions - which he has agreed to. You have been discourteous to me by charging me with spreading vitriol. How I did this I do not know.

If the subject of apologetics offends you, there’s a handy ‘ignore’ feature on this forum. I kindly suggest you use it.

Regards.

Dave Lankshear - 13 November 2008 12:53 PM

But the thing is you already have, and Sebastion, I and others are kind of asking you not to. Please.

I tend to agree Andrew. Not to mention I find your response to Dave a little rude to say the least. I think you’d do well to simply leave this topic for the time being.

Praise be to God.

May God call Andrew to answer for his words (about wanting to discover the truth). This would be the best result. Let me see if I am right: Andrew feels convinced of his belief and he thinks I am too.

The main issues are that I testify that Muhammad is a prophet of God, and that Jesus is not the son of God, and that Jesus is not God, and that Jesus cannot take the sins of another, all of which claims I think he refutes.

He (that is you, Andrew) wants to continue to ask questions, following our dialogue in this forum. God willing, that’s fine by me. He is not sure if I’m lying nor if I am willing to assess my own belief.

There is an answer to these things. Praise be to God: look what is written in the Qur’an for me. As a sincere Muslim, willing to please my Lord, I don’t want to avoid a good chance to let the truth shine forth.

I want the truth to shine forth because I hope to see more people in this country, my place of origin, praying, and less people drinking, and I mean praying to God. So, I’m willing to throw my belief out the window if its not the true belief. Let God take it away if its false.

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Subhanallah! = Glory be to God! Look what is written for the Muslim, right after 25+ lines about Jesus and his role in the whole story of God. (Qur’an 3: 29-60).

If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after knowledge Hath come to thee, say: “Come! let us gather together,- our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of God on those who lie!” (Qur’an 3:61)

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Think about it. Think about it, and think about it. This is a mighty line! Now I return to the comments by Andrew: He wants the truth to be borne out: so Is there any better way than to call on God to deliver the truth, and remove the liar?

In sha Allah = God willing. God willing, there is a better way, but then again, maybe the above duel would be the best way. God knows best the detail of his own will, not me.

Ken Austin has quoted baseless material and is trying to insult Islam and the prophet Muhammad without applying knowledge. Ignorance is common. His quotes are weak and unsupported. I respect Andrew’s attitude: he has stated he wants to learn about Islam, not Sebastian.

So, Andrew, 1. you’ve seen the big backup - it’s not a weak tail - God Almighty, God himself, unknowable and all-knowing, backs up the affirmative, the supporters of the Arabian prophet 2. don’t go rushing into this - why don’t you pray and pray and pray exceedingly, and see what might come to you of God’s mercy and guidance. Would you like to invite a curse upon yourself if you got it wrong? I’m willing, but I don’t recommend you to go into a duel with me as described above. I recommend you to use patience and keep asking questions, and don’t mind me - I’m just a person. I may be offensive, bold, unskillful, or whatever you might think about me, but your deal is not with me. Don’t let my human impatience get in the way of your own attempts to understand the world.

The reason I’ve quoted line 3:61 above (its called a ‘mubahala’) is to make you really consider things: I have shown you the back room, there’s nothing hidden from you. Read the Quran. Its available in bookshops. Its free online. We don’t need to hide anything. Praise be to God.

I don’t mind serving my Lord in this way, or in some other, but I don’t recommend you call such a duel, and I don’t recommend it myself, either, because I think that with time, you can find the truth you are looking for, and I prefer patience to aggressive acts.

You must ask yourself, though - are you really looking? And on the subject of me again: the Qur’an says that liars are awful, lying is not of God. So, believe me, I don’t lie to you. I take god as my witness that as far as I know I haven’t lied to you. If I have lied to you, then I lied to myself as well. I certainly haven’t intentionally lied to you. What good would it do?

Your case is with Him, not me, it is with your creator. My case is with Him. I can only try to obey what is ordered of me and fear my Lord’s wrath and hope for his Paradise. Subhanallah! Even the messengers don’t have knowledge of the unseen, nor will they report on the reception of the message. They will report to the Lord that they delivered what they were asked to deliver, not whether or not people believed it - the duty of the messenger is only to deliver.

So, certainly, what happens to you is not up to me. As long as you are a polite and respectful Christian, I can continue to discuss the revelations of our Lord, I can unite with you in works of righteousness for the needy or the good of the community, like sandbagging after a flood, and I can say salaam alaiykum, but we then we draw the line. You have your way, and I have mine. Our worship is different.

So, God willing, we can avoid the impatience of a hurried curse, and we can continue to discuss our Lord’s signs and revelations, and as you believe that the holy spirit will guide you into all truth, I believe it will also guide anyone who is willing to be guided. It has guided me. Bring up your objections further, and let us find out a fault in the Qur’an if there is one.

Yet, the holy spirit brought the Qur’an to the prophet Muhammad, and I have it now in my hands, so it is by the Grace of God, and through the wielding the holy spirit that I have the chance to know about God and the judgement day. Praise be to God who used the holy spirit to guide me.

So, be sure that the holy spirit will guide you if you are willing to surrender yourself fully to God. The Qur’an says: they ask you about the holy spirit. Say: Of it I have but a little knowledge. The knowledge of it is with my Lord. This statement is good for Muhammad, too, may God bless him. That is to say, he didn’t have knowledge of the unseen, nor did he have knowledge of the holy spirit.

Rather, he was revealed to, and he accepted the revelation, and he was contacted by the holy spirit, but that is in no way a suggestion that he had any authority over either. He is but a servant of his Lord, may God bless his servant further.

Praise be to God.

Reply for Dave Lankshear (and others) about Muhammad, peace be upon him. If he was on a drug-induced vision, and he’s not really a prophet, then I’m wrong, and I’ll be punished for that. If he was inspired by the devil, then I’m wrong, and I’ll be punished for that. If he was a greedy self-inflater, then I’m wrong and I’ll be judged for that.

If he was a prophet of God, and I testify that he was, then you are obliged to recognise him and obey what he commands you on God’s behalf. In the end, God will decide the matters wherein his servants differ. That is the day of reckoning. We will all be there. God knows who’s right, so ask Him and strive to find out.

Regarding the Jews. The Children of Israel were given tremendous favours and other blessings, not only favours, by the Almighty. This is written in chapter 2 of the Qur’an (c. lines 40-120).

The greatest error of them, it seems, is ingratitude, in the form of disobedience, indulgence sin, and low faith. Why is this termed ingratitude? Well, if they had never called on God in Egypt, they wouldn’t have a deal with Him.

But they did. They were the offspring of Abraham, and they knew about God, and they called on Him, and He helped them, and they didn’t do what He commanded, and for this they are cursed. Not written off, just cursed. The specific nature of their curse is different to that of the Christians. The specific nature of their curse is best known by the almighty, but in includes scattering and generally speaking, exile.

Exile is good for them, because it helps them to find God. If God had wanted to punish them He would have buried them. But the almighty is all-wise and He has all his servants in his sight. He has decreed mercy for Himself. He will gather them all together before the last day, bringing them as a ‘mixed crowd’. (Qur’an 17: 104 - translations differ about it, but I consider it ‘mixed crowd from various nations’).

This post says a few strong claims. Yet, I refer you to the Qur’an, chapters 2, 17, and 59, and others, and you should see that my comments reflect the content of it. I encourage you to read and see for yourself if I am off-track with my writing here. Nevertheless, God knows best in all matters.

Sebastian.

Sebastian Reed - 13 November 2008 06:39 PM

Reply for Dave Lankshear (and others) about Muhammad, peace be upon him. If he was on a drug-induced vision, and he’s not really a prophet, then I’m wrong, and I’ll be punished for that. If he was inspired by the devil, then I’m wrong, and I’ll be punished for that. If he was a greedy self-inflater, then I’m wrong and I’ll be judged for that.

Sebastian, how does this sit?:
If he was on a drug-induced vision, and he’s not really a prophet, then I’m wrong, and I’ll be forgiven for that. If he was inspired by the devil, then I’m wrong, and I’ll be forgiven for that. If he was a greedy self-inflater, then I’m wrong and I’ll be forgiven for that.

Kind regards,
Eric.

Praise is for God. This is a reply for Tim Allen.

I said:

Muhammad got it right, and the 1 billion Christians who think Jesus was killed got it wrong. Would you back Gabriel or the Christians?

You wrote: As Dave Lankshear and others have been pointing out to you, it is not just the Christians who believe Jesus was killed by crucifixion - Jews and non-believers of all types accept it as a historical fact. The onus is on anyone who claims it didn’t happen to explain how this gross misunderstanding happened. To say that you can be sure it was a misunderstanding because Gabriel told Muhammad it was so assumes that Gabriel did actually appear and reveal the truth to Muhammad, which is somewhat more difficult to corroborate than the death of Jesus on the cross. Simply asserting that it convinces you without demonstrating how or why does not make it very convincing for us.

I reply again, would you back Gabriel or the Christians? What about Gabriel vs. the testimony of all of mankind? Gabriel doesn’t lie. If Gabriel says Jesus wasn’t crucified and you could confirm it, you would go with his testimony, I’m sure.

Then you wrote: This gets back to the point I raised in post #15 on 11th November: can you detail how or why the Qur’an confirms the previous scriptures (i.e the Old and New Testament)? You mentioned that the greatest confirmation for you is what you called the Gospel, including the whole story from Adam to judgement day. This confuses me, as this story and what most Christians would call the Gospel (in simplistic terms, the message that Jesus provides the salvation from sin that God promised from the time of Adam) is explained in much more depth and detail in the New and Old Testaments than in the Qur’an, from my reading of these three documents. How can a newer, briefer version of a story (i.e. the Qur’an) confirm an older, more detailed version (i.e. the Bible)?

I think that you should then try to understand the Quranic Gospel so that you can have a perspective and see the quranic position of the Christians and of mankind generally.

You also wrote: Also, what do you understand by the term Messiah? Given that the Qur’an refers to Jesus as the Messiah, what does that title tell us about Jesus?

Personally, my understanding is that any Jew, alive at that time, who saw Jesus and did not testify to his being from God, could not be saved - such a person became a disbeliever for rejecting God’s great signs. The Qur’an says this, it is 4:159:

And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

So, in this way, he was a saviour to them. They were lost and he showed them the straight path, I think that is how he saved them. I encourage you to consult a tafseer of the Qur’an to check this view. Also, people might say that messiah doesn’t mean saviour, it means chosen one, or anointed, and God knows best.

Of course, we attribute their being saved to God’s work, not Jesus’ work. We understand that Jesus was a servant of his Lord. God saved them that were saved, for God saves. God knows best about it. Jesus is also called a word, a sign, and a prophet. He was sent to the Children of Israel. This is clear in the Qur’an. He was not sent to all of mankind.

This shows clearly why Muhammad was raised up from among a people without religion. Through Muhammad (may God bless him) the rest of the world has heard the Gospel of God, the Gospel that Jesus and Moses preached. The rest of the world means everyone who didn’t hear it from them: Indonesia, half of India, Pakistan Turkey, North Africa, etc.

The whole thing is quite simple when you look at it. God has sent messengers to mankind to explain to them knowledge and wisdom. They are on the same team, they preach the same message: worship God.

Tim, you stated:
As one of my favourite quotes states:
“We can believe what we choose, but we are answerable for what we choose to believe.” We can be misled, despite our sincerity to submit fully to God, if the one who we accept as the true messenger of God has been misled - or if they are misleading us.

I agree with you. By all means, Tim, do not accept my beliefs because I say they are true. Rather, find out for yourself what is right and wrong.

Praise be to God.

Sebastian Reed

I can only reply that again, would you back Gabriel or the Christians? What about Gabriel vs. all of mankind? Angels can’t lie. If Gabriel says Jesus wasn’t crucified, you would go with his testimony, I’m sure.

Angels most certainly can lie, and Satan, an angel, is the father of lies.

Paul also specifically warns us to consider what the angels tell us against the words of the apostles, in Gal 1:6-9.

Sebastian

You are most gracious, thank you. All forum members (including myself!!) could learn from your demeanour!

As I understand our religions, we have 3 key things in common:

1.  There is one God
2.  Moses was a prophet of God
3.  Jesus was the Messiah

Agreed?

Then, may I ask some direct questions of you? This is not a trap…just a logical way for you to understand the essence of Christianity. (In so declaring, I am aiming to be as transparent as I can be.)

1.  Have you ever lied before in your life?
2.  Have you ever stolen something?
3.  Have you ever looked on a women with sexual thoughts?

Kind regards.

Andrew.

This is not a trap…just a logical way for you to understand the essence of Christianity. (In so declaring, I am aiming to be as transparent as I can be.)
1.  Have you ever lied before in your life?
2.  Have you ever stolen something?
3.  Have you ever looked on a women with sexual thoughts?

”This is not a trap” ;-)

Andrew - I understand Christianity. Thank you for the offer, but I’m not looking for your teaching. The reason is that I understand it. I have studied it, and I understand it. I accept some of it, as it is true, and I reject other parts, because they are false.

I have lied, I have stolen, and have lusted, but I’m not answering you so that you can explain to me the love of God the man and his payment for my sin - this is a false doctrine that is clear idolatry.

I don’t need your explanation of Christianity, I was already Christian. I used to go to church, sing, play the guitar, and read the Bible at home. I had a picture of Jesus and I prayed fervently and I was amazed at the changes brought about in my life.

However, I later realised that it was God who answered the prayer, not Jesus, and that Jesus is incapable of answering my prayer, his own prayer, or anyone’s prayer.

Thank you for your concern, but I detest what you do. Never will I worship anything but my Lord God - it is He who has given me life, will cause me to die, and will one day raise me up again and judge me. It is He who has the entire earth in his grasp.

Why should I worship a man who himself is seeking a means of access to the almighty, why should I do so when he cannot answer me. What pagan would I be to do that? The doctrine that God is Jesus is pure disbelief.

This is from Sebastian, since I believe the content of the Qur’an (translates to The Reading).

Andrew, why don’t you consider the questions I’ve posed. I think it’s a lot for you to digest and you might want to take your time. You don’t need me as a mentor. The Qur’an says “the resposibility is upon God to explain the straight path”, although if you need any tips about understanding the quranic doctrine, I don’t mind answering.

Yet I worry that the Qur’an is “unavailable” to you whilst you look at it with a motive other than the impartial assessment of it’s message. The attempt to assess the qur’an in the light of your beliefs is fraught with danger. The quran should be assessed in the light of the full love of your soul - the love you probably had for life when you were about 10 years old.

I have said to people in the past “don’t read the Qur’an if you’re not investigating it” - it will not do you any good. This is from the Qur’an itself. It warns attackers about the result of attack. Attack on the Qur’an will result in injury to the attacker.

Also, don’t bother reading my posts if you don’t want to learn about the claims of Muhammad, who claims to be a messenger of God. If you only write to me hoping that I will adopt your faith, I tell you plainly not to bother because I have understood it and I dislike it.

Leave me to talk with others. I don’t use brainwashing or illegal tactics on people, so you shouldn’t fear that I chat to them. I decry what I find in error, but I don’t force anyone to believe as I believe. Quran 2:256 says “let there be no compulsion in religion”.

I openly declare to you that I’m not in your forum to learn about Christianity. I represent my party, the followers of Muhammad, for the sake of presenting to you what has been revealed to us. I’m not interested in an interfaith dialogue about these matters. It is a presentation. If you want to ‘present’ your beliefs, you can try it on Muslims, but you would only bring the curse of God upon you if you did, because it is regression.

If we have humanitarian, or environmental problems, to share, and to unite in resolving, then dialogue is appropriate, but did you see Jesus asking the Jews to explain to him their religion so that he could understand it? No, he would only do so to be polite at best. He already knew about them. Likewise, we know about Christianity. We are not looking for lessons in it.

I don’t mean to be brusque. I’m simply telling you the truth. I wouldn’t be fair to my Lord if I leave you with a false idea about our contact. When I stated if God had a son I would be the first to worship him, it doesn’t mean I want to read a book that has that written in it and then go along with that. I mean that by the power of the word of ‘God’, calling on such a powerful name, the most powerful, may it be done, that if He has a son, then I worship that son, if it is pleasing to the Almighty. I don’t think it is healthy to swear by God too much, but in this case, in a ‘theological conflict’, it is perhaps one of the right places.

God knows best, and is a witness to all things.

Glory be to Him.

Praise be to God.

A reply for Eric:

it is true that God forgives, but the curse is upon those who reject God’s signs, choosing a path of their own desire, since God makes clear his path and his signs. To follow a false prophet is, in the end, a grave error and leads to other sins and corruption of the society.

Sebastian