If you had been born in Pakistan, do you think you would have read the Bible and become a Christian while 999/1000 people were Muslim? I doubt it. You would probably have been stubbornly defending the religion of your fathers just as you are now, fasting Ramadhan and criticising the annoying missionaries.

“On one occasion, under armed escort, I spoke in an Islamic University in Pakistan about peace with God through Jesus Christ. At the end I could see tears running from some of the young women in their headdresses.”

http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/6158/

Sebastian Reed - 11 November 2008 08:32 PM

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I do have sins. Muslims believe that everyone has sins. Why did the prophet Mohammad pray (peace be upon him) for forgiveness if he didn’t have sins. Prophets sin. Moses killed a man. He repented and was forgiven. God knows we sin. Adam sinned. He was tempted by satan.

Faith and works are the remedies on judgement day, as I understand it. These are what I must present for the right to get God’s mercy. Regular prayer, charity, and witnessing justice and truth are of the best works, according to the Qur’an. Also, kindness to the weak and humility and patience. Obedience is another biggie. God knows the best about it.

Thanks for the reply Sebastian.

Just out of interest - do you know on what basis Christians say they can be forgiven?

Mike

Sebastian

May I ask a couple of paired questions for you to respond to and reflect on? I will not ocmment further on the answers - I simply wish you to reflect on the importance of what’s being asked.

1a. Does the Koran say that Jesus was sinless?
1b. Does the Koran tell Mohammad to repent?

2a. Was Jesus the Messiah?
2b. Was Mohammad the Messiah?

3a. Where is the body of Jesus?
3b. Where is the body of Mohammad?

May I clarify my question about the Holocaust. In Islam, the theological principle of Taqiyya means hiding one’s true beliefs and intentions to confuse ones adversaries and enable mujahedeen to operate freely amongst enemies.

Because of this principle (and your stated strong adherance to all the teachings of Islam), I cannot truly know how honestly you have asnwered my last questions. concerning the Holocaust. As I have endeavoured to be honest to you about my beliefs (in the face of opposition by some on this forum), would you oblige me the same?

1. Do you hold that millions of Jews were or were not killed by atrocities such as mass gassings under the Nazis?
2. Were the many films and photographs taken of the piled up naked bodies true photos or films?
3. Are the current verbal reports by eye witnesses of the piled up bodies true or or not?

Could you please try and answer these questions with yes/no type answers? Thanks.

Andrew.

Praise be to God.

Taqiyya is something mentioned once only in the Qur’an, if I’m not mistaken, although God knows best. The detail of it would again be with the experts’ tafseer. I know little about it, although I can imagine what it is like.

I don’t need any taqiya with you. It would be disobedience to God. I like telling you the truth because it is a service to my Lord. As long as you have the intelligence to logically understand what I write, then the rest is up to you. I’m not responsible for what you do.

On the other hand, for the sake of the almighty, I will not answer your questions about the holocaust and the Jesus, except for the role of Jesus as explained in the Qur’an. That is because it is not of benefit that I follow your way of thinking or help you to follow it further. Nor should I answer what I don’t have knowledge of.

You seem intent on building a case against me without using real knowledge or refuting my arguments - it seems that you rather seek to paint a picture of some evilmonger Muslim that is suitable to your mind’s desire. You can paint any picture you want. God already knows the truth of me, so I needn’t worry. To Him I am sincere.

The prayer I make each day, five times is:

In the Name of God, the Most Compassionate, the Most Gracious,
Praise be to God, the Lord of the Worlds,
The most compassionate, the most Gracious,
Ruler of the day of judgement,
You alone do we worship and you alone to we turn to for help,
Guide us to the straight path,
the path of those who you have blessed, who were not cursed, nor did they go astray.

I wash myself for prayer. I put my head down low before my Lord and I prostrate before Him showing Him how willing I am to be his servant. I do this at least 5 times a day, about 3-4 prostrations each time. Even after prayer, I’m often disappointed at how insufficient my service must be, and how worldly my outlook is, concerned if was concentrating or distracted in my prayer.

==========================

In a recent post, I made note of how unwilling you seemed to be look for the universal truth, the one that is sure of itself, and above both of us. Do you fear something other than God? How can you be mislead if you submit to Him fully? I celebrate my bargain with Him, sure that He will protect me and reward me if I’m sincere to Him. He has promised this.

I ask Him again and again each day to guide me to the straight path, which is referred to as the path of the prophets, all of them, and they all submitted to Him.

Jesus is called the messiah in the Qur’an. No other prophet gets that title. Jesus was raised by God. He was a messenger to the Children of Israel, while Mohammad was a messenger to all of mankind, yet they follow the same religion, the religion of Abraham the upright.

Jesus is considered to have a characteristic called ‘zuhud’ or detachment from the world. Chapter 19 of the Qur’an says:

He said: “I am indeed a servant of God: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
“He hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
“So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life”!
Such was Jesus the son of Mary: it is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute.
It is not befitting to the majesty of God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, “Be”, and it is.
Verily God is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.
But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the unbelievers because of the coming Judgment of a Momentous Day!
How plainly will they see and hear, the Day that they will appear before Us! but the unjust today are in error manifest!
But warn them of the Day of Distress, when the matter will be determined: for behold, they are negligent and they do not believe!
It is We Who will inherit the earth, and all beings thereon: to Us will they all be returned.

What an excellent clarification of the matter and warning there! Glory be to God. Glory be to the God who created Jesus.

I don’t know the whereabout of the bodies of Jesus and Mohammad, although God certainly knows. Lossely, I believe that the body of the prophet Muhammad is in Madina, although I wouldn’t say I’m certain. I didn’t see him buried, although if there is sufficient evidence, I would believe that.

Sebastian.

Sebastion, you never got back to me on why Mohammed made a basic historical error and insisted that Jesus wasn’t murdered? He just plain was… everything in history indicates it. Even Tacitus, a Roman historian that hated Christians verified that Jesus was executed. Then there’s Josephus, who else have I missed?

Anyway, the point is that if Mohammed got something this basic wrong, surely he was just making the rest up as he went along?

Good logic Dave.  And another curiosity follows:

When Muslims argue against Jesus being God, they often bring up “not my will but yours be done”, to prove that they’re different and distinct.  But when did Jesus say these words, and what was he referring to?  Why, his imminent crucifixion!

So my question for Muslims is - if Jesus was never crucified, did he even really say these words at all?  And if he did, does that mean that God deceived him into thinking he’d be killed the next day when he wouldn’t?

Muslims might say that, but does the Koran speak about those verses? I haven’t seen it in the chapters I’ve read. For some reason it sounds like a more recent argument, but if the Koran or Hadiths does mention it then there’s a major problem of the internal consistency of the Muslim belief system.

From Answering Islam link

What is the fundamental difference between the nature or character of God in the Bible and in the Qur’an?

In the Bible God “draws near”, “comes down” and seeks after us in order to enter into an intimate relationship with us. The whole Bible is the story of God seeking man.

Indeed God is a God who seeks after us, who comes down to be near us. He reveals his character, his heart and his desire to establish a loving relationship with his creation. Will you be part of his people that are mentioned in Revelation 21:3?
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
That is the topic of the Bible, it reveals God to you so that you can respond to him and become part of his people.

In contrast, the Qur’an portrays God as one who is “far”, who is transcendent only. As a Muslim theologian has said, “God reveals only his will, not himself. He remains forever hidden”. Even though he is near as the jugular vein as the Qur’an states, but this is a “technical” nearness, since just as we are not “aware” of our jugular vein most of the time and don’t have a personal relationship with it this only conveys that God is “everywhere” (far and near) like the air that is around us, but in the Bible God doesn’t want to be with us only on the basis of his omnipresence and omniscience because being God he is “everywhere” anyway. No, he wants to be near to us like someone we love.

Islam is about man trying to please God by obeying his will. The Bible reveals God as taking the initiative and coming down to seek after us. The movement is in the opposite direction.

Reply for Dave and Dan.

Muhammad did not report historical references. He wasn’t sitting in the library reading books. Muhammad was revealed to by the Almighty through, not a journalist, nor a Roman, nor a human at all. The angel Gabriel came to him.

Muhammad got it right, and the 1 billion Christians who think Jesus was killed got it wrong. Would you back Gabriel or the Christians?

Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by Allah’s will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad, to mankind): Who is an enemy to Gabriel! For he it is who hath revealed (this Scripture) to thy heart by Allah’s leave, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, and a guidance and glad tidings to believers;
SHAKIR: Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah’s command, verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers.

Quran 2:97-98

Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the revelation to thy heart by Allah’s will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-
Whoever is an enemy to God and His angels and messengers, to Gabriel and Michael,- Lo! God is an enemy to those who reject Faith.

If you want to be sure, ask God. Be willing to sacrifice anything to know the truth if it will save you from being roasted in the fire. Surely you would be willing to be saved from that. God surely knows the truth about Jesus.

Praise be to the all-knower, the all-seer, the ever-living God of the worlds.

New he’d say that

This link Islam - not to be believed reveals some logical thinking on the differences between the God of the Bible, and the God of Mohammad’s incorrect thinking.

Here are a couple of excerpts:

Jesus was called “the Messiah” by Allah in the Qur’an.  And Jesus was even born of a virgin (Surah 3:45-57)!  Yet Muhammad who had 12 wives, 2 concubines, sex with captured slave girls, and participated in many attacks on innocent caravans and villages, and insisted on 20% of all the booty from these raids—is supposed to be the greatest of the prophets.  History tells us that one of the major reasons the Jews in Arabia refused to believe Muhammad was a prophet at all - was because of Muhammad’s harem. No prophet of God ever had this same sort of sexual appetite that Muhammad had. 

Both Muslim holy books (Qur’an/Koran and Hadith) contain commands for Muslims to subjugate the world, militarily.  Muhammad commanded Muslims to spread Islam through Offensive Jihad; or conquest of non-Muslim lands.  Muslims are also commanded to take back any land that was formerly Muslim, such as Israel. 

Radical Muslims believe that they are Mujahideen, or “holy warriors of Allah”.  Their goal, like Islam’s goal is to establish the entire world as a pure Islamic state (a Khalifah), which conforms to Islamic laws. 

Radical Islam may be Satan’s final effort to take over the whole world and subject it to his will. 

An example of what Muslim children are taught in Muslim schools is this statement, found in a Jordanian/Palestinian school book in 1998:

“This religion (Islam) will destroy all other religions through the Islamic Jihad fighters”

Eighth Grade Saudi Textbook: “The apes are the Jews, the people of the Sabbath; while the swine are the Christians, the infidels of the communion of Jesus.”

The Jewish and Christian Bibles were written by “inspired men of God” who immediately committed God’s Word to writing.  Islam doesn’t even have either an original or inspired Qur’an. The Muslim Qur’an was made up supposedly from “memory” from those who supposedly committed the words of Muhammad to memory, and from a few scraps found under a bed.  This was originally begun about 15-20 years after Muhammad died at his wife Ayish’s home in Medina, and he was lowered into a hole in the ground, where he remains.  The compilation was not finished until at least 150 years after Muhammad’s death.  This “hearsay” argument seriously brings the credibility of the Qur’an into question.  But, that’s only the beginning.  All the errors, including simple mathematical and historical errors you will see in the Qur’an below renders it impossible to be a divine revelation.

There are no Arabic chronicles of Islam from the first century of Islam.  Many of the earliest documents known about Islam refer to the followers of Muhammad as “hagarenes,” and the “tribe of Ishmael,” in other words as descendants of Hagar, the servant girl that the Jewish patriarch Abraham used to father his son Ishmael.

This same quality of transmission we find regarding the Jewish and Christian bible cannot be said of the Islamic Qur’an.  The Islamic Qur’an was mostly written down from 3rd and 4th hand accounts; and from a few thoughts written on scrap papers, palm leaves and stones --and compiled over 150 years after Muhammad died at the age of 63 in 632 A.D.  In the Mishtatu ‘lMasabih, chapter 3, we are informed that by the command of the first Caliph, Abu Bakr, the text of the Qur’an was “collected” by Zaid ibn Thabit “from palm leaves and stones and from the breasts of those who had learned by heart” the various revelations.” Abu Bakr’s copy came into the possession of Hafsah, one of Muhammad’s widows.  Qustalani states that after Hafsah’s death her copy was torn to pieces by Mirwan, who was governor of Medina.

The oldest Qur’an dates from around 790 A.D. (after Jesus), and it is in the British Library. That’s 158 years after Muhammad’s death.

Sebastian

Thank you for your replies. I’m sorry you see me as provocative, but I wish to remain focussed on the truths of Islam vs Christianity. The bible challenges us to proclaim the truth, do ‘earnestly contend for the faith once delivered,’ to be wary and speak against false truths and so on. In other words, it is a battle of truths. You were courageous enough to commence this thread about Islam, I trust you are willing to remain engaged and defend the teachings of Islam, IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY as I would be challenged to defend my faith.(Interestingly, I wonder what reception I would get if I was to pose a challenging Christian subject on one of the Islamic forums...?)

In no way, do I wish to attack you, the person. As I have said more than once before, I feel a love to you as a Christian should. I have also invited you to meet me.The Christian sees the non-Christian as someone who is lost, and, as it is with you, they endeavour to reach that person with the ‘good news’ of Jesus Christ - the Messiah. This is the basis of these forum discussions.

For others on the forum, please see I am trying hard to play the ball, not the man. The issue is with the facts around Islam...hence my questions about Mohammed, the verses in the Koran, Islam’s history etc. The issue gets a little more challenging however when I introduce the Islamic teaching to justify lying in certain circumstances. This is an actual aspect of Islam, so it is unfortunate that it is addressed to Sebastian - but in the context of an open forum, I feel appropriate to be discussed. Unfortunately, even Sebastian saying he will not lie is a problematic statement.

Sebastian - you challenged me to open my eyes and assess my fears. Well, this same challenge could be directed back to you. The Christian has had a special revelation of God, and has been called by God through the prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is the same Holy Spirit who directs our understanding of God’s true word, the bible. This is why we defend it vigorously. Therefore, I understand that when you say I am closed minded and not willing to learn....but this is because of my confidence in the Christian faith, and my conviction to share this faith with others. This, I believe, is no different to your good self! Is that a fair enough statement?

As you have said, you are happy to engage, and for the sake of a forum member who believes I should cease, can I kindly ask if you remain open to responding to questions about Islam, as they pertain to its history, the Koran etc? If you do not wish to engage any further, I will respect that.

Kind regards.

Andrew,

maybe I’ve missed something, but what on earth has the holocaust got to do with this thread? Was it mentioned prior? Or are you just throwing more vitriol around? That previous post of your sure feels like you’re throwing into this discussion your list of “things I don’t like about them thar Muslims / Greenies / NIV readers!” Cause we all know the last thing anyone wants to be called is an “anti-Semite”. ;-)

May I clarify my question about the Holocaust. In Islam, the theological principle of Taqiyya means hiding one’s true beliefs and intentions to confuse ones adversaries and enable mujahedeen to operate freely amongst enemies.

Because of this principle (and your stated strong adherance to all the teachings of Islam), I cannot truly know how honestly you have asnwered my last questions. concerning the Holocaust. As I have endeavoured to be honest to you about my beliefs (in the face of opposition by some on this forum), would you oblige me the same?

1. Do you hold that millions of Jews were or were not killed by atrocities such as mass gassings under the Nazis?
2. Were the many films and photographs taken of the piled up naked bodies true photos or films?
3. Are the current verbal reports by eye witnesses of the piled up bodies true or or not?

Relevance?

G’day Sebastian,

Sebastian Reed - 13 November 2008 08:17 AM

Muhammad got it right, and the 1 billion Christians who think Jesus was killed got it wrong. Would you back Gabriel or the Christians?

As Dave Lankshear and others have been pointing out to you, it is not just the Christians who believe Jesus was killed by crucifixion - Jews and non-believers of all types accept it as a historical fact. The onus is on anyone who claims it didn’t happen to explain how this gross misunderstanding happened. To say that you can be sure it was a misunderstanding because Gabriel told Muhammad it was so assumes that Gabriel did actually appear and reveal the truth to Muhammad, which is somewhat more difficult to corroborate than the death of Jesus on the cross. Simply asserting that it convinces you without demonstrating how or why does not make it very convincing for us.

This gets back to the point I raised in post #15 on 11th November: can you detail how or why the Qur’an confirms the previous scriptures (i.e the Old and New Testament)? You mentioned that the greatest confirmation for you is what you called the Gospel, including the whole story from Adam to judgement day. This confuses me, as this story and what most Christians would call the Gospel (in simplistic terms, the message that Jesus provides the salvation from sin that God promised from the time of Adam) is explained in much more depth and detail in the New and Old Testaments than in the Qur’an, from my reading of these three documents. How can a newer, briefer version of a story (i.e. the Qur’an) confirm an older, more detailed version (i.e. the Bible)?

Also, what do you understand by the term Messiah? Given that the Qur’an refers to Jesus as the Messiah, what does that title tell us about Jesus?

Sebastian Reed -

In a recent post, I made note of how unwilling you seemed to be look for the universal truth, the one that is sure of itself, and above both of us ... How can you be mislead if you submit to Him fully?

I think you are not entirely correct here. It is more correct to say that we are unwilling to accept your beliefs as the universal truth - the fact that we look at the Bible and the Qur’an and decide for the Bible simply echoes the free will that you correctly state God has given us to choose what we wil believe and follow. As one of my favourite quotes states:
“We can believe what we choose, but we are answerable for what we choose to believe.”
We can be misled, despite our sincerity to submit fully to God, if the one who we accept as the true messenger of God has been misled - or if they are misleading us.

Cheers,

Timbo

O Dave,

I raise the issue of the Holocaust because it is linked to the Jews, as discussed on this thread. Further, I wish to explore the issue of the stated Muslims’ teaching regarding authourised dishonesty, and I nominated the Holocaust to test that. I would expect to be scruinised by any non-Christian in the same way about difficult bible passaged - eg homosexuality.

It is entirely relevant because of Islam’s stated issues against the Jews in their teachings. In my attempt to understand Islam, I am asking Sebastian to comment on this modern-day event from a Muslim’s perspective.

At the end of the day, the issue is with the Islam...not Sebastian.

Besides - this is a forum where one can express opinions, ideas and so on. There are no explicit rules about what can be posted - apart from remaining decent and respectful and so on. I believe I have done that. Should a moderator think I am off track, then I would be happy to accept the counsel of the moderator....noting Sebastian’s replies to me that he is happy to receive my questions!

And may the fleas of a thousand camels attack me should I offend another forum member…

Regards.

Andrew.