Eric, good questions...but the problems with the Jews existed well before 1948. Don’t believe for one moment this is a just a matter of a small plot of land in the Middle East, and the so-called ‘dispossession.’

If it was just a matter of the land, why the pogroms, wars and hatred that has existed leading up to the formation of national Israel? Why are Muslims around the world fighting with each other, and yet somehow allegedly blaming the Jews for their woes?

No - the problem goes much deeper.

Although I am happy to respect that the Q’uran is regarded as a Holy Book by Muslims I am not able to accept its validity. The singular revelation from God to one person, as per Muhammed or Joseph Smith (The Book of Mormon) or those wretched writings by Moses David (Founder of the Children of God) are to me, all suspect by virtue of their being a singular revelation, usually in secret to an individual. The Bible, on the other hand, is a continuous revelation to quite a few people, across a span of ages, in various languages and cultural settings with a remarkably singular message.
The other scriptures of other religeons fail in this regard in my opinion. The Buddhist scriptures to me, fail to line up because their authenticity is in doubt even between the various sects. The Hindu scriptures vary at their most basic concepts. eg; earlier scriptures taught but one life for a man, while later ones taught reincarnation.
or
they are incomplete. eg; the Avestas (Parsee/ Zoroastrian scriptures) are no longer held as a complete set. Portions have been lost (and besides, Zoroaster was in the class of those receiving a singular revelation from God).

I am not one who finds it easy to trust but one person. Therefore, when I was exploring various scriptures in my late teens and since (I still read these things from time to time) I was impressed by the Bible in a way that other scriptures like the Q’uran could not impress me.
Sebastian, can you explain to one such as me why I should regard the writings of one man as somehow being “more true” than those of many whose message is so consistent?

Andrew, perhaps someone with more historical knowledge could clear this up for us. Why do you put ‘dispossession’ in inverted commas and qualify it with ‘so-called’? Also, when one thinks of anti-Jewish pogroms, and anti-semitism in general, one usually thinks of majority Christian states, such as Russia, 16 -17th Century Spain, France, the 1940s: Nazi Germany, Lithuania, etc.
Eric.

To summarise my argument, Andrew, I believe that, on the historical canvas, Jewish - Christian relations have been more problematic and more oppressive to Jews that Jewish - Muslim relations. In which case, people in glass houses, etc.
Eric.

Thanks Eric.

Yes - perhaps historians will help us in this complex matter - but also, be encouraged to do your own research as I have done. I fear we are often the victims of western media on this issue...which doesn’t help a lot in finding out what’s really going on. The adage, “to form opinion, rather than inform” comes to mind.

On my use of “ “, I do this because I do not accept the term disposess....(just as many people do not accept the term ‘invade’ when referencing Australia.) At the time, the world, through the democratic processes of the UN, supported the formation of the state of Israel. There were agreements and concessions made. I hold that due to the hatred to the Jews by Muslims PRIOR to the formation of Israel, then the resultant war the day following the formation simply shows the true intent of Islam.

Eric, please know that this subject is most problematic...especially for me, as many Anglicans do not hold the views I do. Therefore, I am pretty much alone on this one....so I’m not feeling like a fight with you AS WELL as my other good Protestent friends!...I hope you understand.

Remember, this exchange is primarlily with Sebastian...as I am keen to know his view - especially in light of stated claims in the Koran about tolerance AND ACCEPTANCE with ‘the people of the book.’

Sebastian, any comment on this, and my earlier questions?

Kind regards.

This is a reply to Andrew about Jews as seen by Muslims. God knows best about everything on this planet. He knows about Jews and Muslims. Glory be to Him.

Praise be to the All-knower of the seen and the unseen. I want to define the terms Jews and Muslims first of all, whether you take these definitions or you disagree with them, but these are more or less the way a Muslim sees these terms.

Jew - someone from the tribe of Jude or from the kingdom of Judea or someone who practises the religion that these nations practiced (whether it be the laws of Moses or the laws of the Talmud, or some other law); it may be someone from the Jude bloodlines or someone who married in later on after the scattering from Jerusalem.

I believe there are sincere religious Jews, also called orthodox Jews (religious people who pray every day and follow the laws and rituals they consider are commanded to them), then there are non-practising Jews, then there are atheist and entirely non-religious Jews. They claim Jewishness by ethnicity only, not by religosity.

Muslim - someone submitted to God. The term ‘Muslim’, or Submitter, is used in the Qur’an and is a name given by God to his willing servants (submission can be willing or unwilling, but for humans, willing submission is the goal, based on a recognition of God). Note that from our perspective, this is different from the names Jew and Christian. Although these latter two are both used in the Qur’an, they are used retrospectively - we understand that they were not names ordained by God. We see them both as man-made names.

The Qur’an points out that Noah was a muslim (10:72), and Abraham submitted to the Lord of the Worlds (i.e, he was a Muslim) (3:67), who both lived well before the time of Judea and the time of Christ, and we understand that all the prophets submitted to the will of God, and thus, they were Muslims.

Further, as Muslims are God’s servants and will serve Him as He orders, obeying Him in everything, then they like what is likable and tolerate what is tolerable and dislike what is worthy of dislike. God’s enemies are the enemies of Muslims, and God’s beloved are the beloved of Muslims.

Then, those who are neutral are neutral. A Muslim cannot hate someone who is neutral and yet say that person is ‘an enemy of islam’, using it as a lie to justify his behaviour. Justice must be maintained. God is a witness of our actions whether we declare them openly or not.

===================

So, while Jews and Christians are people of the book, they have still adopted religious beliefs and practices not sanctioned by Him, and they are often living in disobedience to Him, although as the Qur’an says, they are not all alike, some of them are pleasing to Him and will go to Paradise.

So, we see it as follows, and I testify to this as the divine truth: all prophets were Muslims, all preached Islam. Jews are a sect that departed from the pure Islamic teachings of their prophet, Moses and then killed other prophets that came to them with warnings. Repeating: all prophets were Muslims, all preached Islam. So, it follows that Christians are a sect that departed from the teachings of their prophet, Jesus, who preached Islam and who was a Muslim.

====================

Good Jews and bad Jews. The Quranic teachings about them are in chapters 2,3, 7, 17, 61, 62, and others. God knows best. Most people don’t understand them deeply.

I think that extensive contemplation of the Quran, especially chapter 2, is required to really get a grip on what they are doing and how they fit into the picture. Praise be to God. Essentially, though, they are very valuable. If not, they would have been given a ticket to the fire and sealed up and locked up and kicked out. But they haven’t. The door has been left open for them until jdugement day. This is shown below:

We gave Moses the Book, and made it a Guide to the Children of Israel: “Take not other than Me as trustee of your affairs.”
O ye that are sprung from those whom We carried with Noah! Verily he was a devotee most grateful.
And We gave decreed for the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance !
When the first of the promises came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare: They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a promise completely fulfilled.
Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.
If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, ye did it against yourselves. So when the second of the promises came to pass, We permitted your enemies to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.
It may be that your Lord may yet show Mercy unto you; but if ye revert to your ways, We shall revert to Ours: And we have made Hell a prison for those who reject.
Quran 17:3-8

Compared to the old testament, the Qur’an is light anyway. Look at the language in the books after the five of Moses and up to the books of the witnesses (which you call the Gospels) - these are heavier than the Qur’an on the Jews, but the Qur’an has summarised the whole thing and put it into perspective that is easy to follow. Praise be to almighty God.

I hope this gives a bit of an answer to the question, even though I haven’t shown much detail. The subject Israilliyat, means ‘the study of the Israelites’ in Arabic, is the area in question. God knows best about them. I’ve contacted Jews in my area and they did not wish to dialogue.

sebastian

Thank you Sebastian.

In our bible, Abraham was called by God to leave the Ur of the Chaldeans (modern day Iran/Iraq).

Are the many references to the Chaldeans incorrect in the bible about their idolitary? If so, how do you declare which passges of the OT are incorrect vs correct? Doesn’t this pose one enormous problem for Islam?

Regards.

Andrew

Glory be to God. Peace be with you.

The story of Abraham is mentioned a few times in the Qur’an. The following excerpt mentions his rejection of the idols of his people:

We bestowed aforetime on Abraham his rectitude of conduct, and well were We acquainted with him.
Behold! he said to his father and his people, “What are these images, to which ye are devoted?”
They said, “We found our fathers worshipping them.”
He said, “Indeed ye have been in manifest error - ye and your fathers.”

They said, “Have you brought us the Truth, or are you one of those who jest?”
He said, “Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He Who created them: and I am a witness to this.
“And by God, I have a plan for your idols - after ye go away and turn your backs”..
So he broke them to pieces, all but the biggest of them, that they might turn to it.
They said, “Who has done this to our gods? He must indeed be some man of impiety!”
They said, “We heard a youth talk of them: He is called Abraham.”
They said, “Then bring him before the eyes of the people, that they may bear witness.”
They said, “Art thou the one that did this with our gods, O Abraham?”
He said: “Nay, this was done by - the biggest one of them! Ask them, if they can speak intelligently!”
So they turned to themselves and said, “Surely ye are the ones in the wrong!”
Then were they confounded with shame: “Thou knowest full well that these idols do not speak!”
Abraham said, “Do ye then worship, besides God, things that can neither be of any good to you nor do you harm?
“Fie upon you, and upon the things that ye worship besides God! Have ye no sense?”
They said, “Burn him and protect your gods, If ye do anything at all!”
We said, “O Fire! be thou cool, and a means of safety for Abraham!”
Then they sought a stratagem against him: but We made them the ones that lost most!
But We delivered him and his nephew Lut and directed them to the land which We have blessed for the nations.
And We bestowed on him Isaac and, as an additional gift, Jacob (his grandson), and We made righteous men of every one of them.
And We made them leaders, guiding by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds, to establish regular prayers, and to practise regular charity; and they constantly served Us

God knows best. There is some more detail about him in other passages although it is not as sizeable as the bible passages. Nevrtheless, this shows enough to see that he was not an idol worshipper and that he turned away from such foolishness.

The following passage, shows how he submitted to the almighty, the one true God:

Abraham in surah 6, 75-83

Lo! Abraham said to his father Azar: “Takest thou idols for gods? For I see thee and thy people in manifest error.”
So also did We show Abraham the power and the laws of the heavens and the earth, that he might have certitude.
When the night covered him over, He saw a star: He said: “This is my Lord.” But when it set, He said: “I love not those that set.”
When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said: “This is my Lord.” But when the moon set, He said: “unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray.”
When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said: “This is my Lord; this is the greatest.” But when the sun set, he said: “O my people! I am indeed free from your giving of partners to God.
“For me, I have set my face, firmly and truly, towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth, and never shall I give partners to God.”
His people disputed with him. He said: “Come ye to dispute with me, about God, when He hath guided me? I fear not that which ye associate with God: Unless my Lord wills, nothing can happen. My Lord comprehendeth in His knowledge all things. Will ye not yourselves be admonished?
“How should I fear the things ye associate with God, when ye fear not to give partners to God without any warrant having been given to you? Which of us two parties hath more right to security? Tell me if ye know.
“It is those who believe and confuse not their beliefs with wrong - that are truly in security, for they are on right guidance.”
That was the reasoning about Us, which We gave to Abraham to use against his people: We raise whom We will, degree after degree: for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge.

Glory be to the witness of this dialogue, who witnessed Abraham’s dialogue with his people, the one true to God, and to Him I submit; I follow the doctrine of Abraham.

Sebastian

Thank you Sebastian.

Because Australia is a democracy and people value their freedoms to practice freedom of speech and freedom of religion, how best should we respond to a threat that such freedoms would be removed under Islam?

Regards.

Praise be to God. The real answer is easy, Andrew. Follow the act of Abraham. Look how he thought about where he found himself. He thought about it. He stopped to think. He contemplated and rejected the error.

Have you thought about why you adopted your beliefs? Did you throw them up against the shadows behind the stars in the sky to see if they were true? Are you giving the same chances to the readings I’ve quoted you?

If you had been born in Pakistan, do you think you would have read the Bible and become a Christian while 999/1000 people were Muslim? I doubt it. You would probably have been stubbornly defending the religion of your fathers just as you are now, fasting Ramadhan and criticising the annoying missionaries.

Andrew! Reject the idols of your fathers. Submit yourself wholy to the Lord of the Worlds, and make no partner in the godhead along beside Him.

Let God be sure that you would rather be right and blush a little, than be wrong, and scorched in Hellfire. Praise be to Him, the Most Merciful.

If you reject this message, the Noble Reading, call on whatever you want besides Him. You cannot escape God in the heavens and the earth. I can’t help you, and nor can the son of Mary.

If you think you can stop the mighty march of the Lord of the Worlds, go ahead, find a way. You will eventually be defeated, gathered up and thrown into Hell for your rejection. Your case is with your creator, Andrew.

He is more moreciful than me. I’m a mere human. How can I guide you? I can’t. I can only just answer your questions. I don’t mind answering more of them. My service in doing so is a service for my Lord. He will report to you the truth of this dialogue on the great day. I will report to Him that I tried to obey Him.

There is a way I can help you. It is this. Show that you are willing to be guided. If you showed a touch of willingness you would receive much help from God, and I feel that a prayer for your guidance would be a duty upon me.

But I’ve seen you reject and flame at what you don’t even understand. Are you not simply partisan? God knows you better than me. Praise be to God. Why don’t you let me see some evidence to show that you are impartial and willing to go with whatever is right. Are you afraid of the governement? Was any prophet afraid of that? No. They feared God. So be afraid of being wrong, and rejecting the invitation of your Lord. He has more right that you fear Him than any government or any scholar, researcher, or any thing whatsoever. Glory be to the almighty.

Sebastian, I appreciate your passion - but I’m confused by your answer.

Are you saying I should leave Australia because of the idolatry here? Well, that is not acceptable. In Australia, I am free to openly worship the God of the bible, Yahweh and Yeshua, his Son. Also, even though Australia is predominately secular, people appreciate the freedoms we have. Given those desires, would you not think unreasonable that we strive to keep those freedoms?

On a different subject, do you, like the Iranian President and many other Muslims, deny the Holocaust?

Regards.

God knows best about the president of Iran. God also knows best about the holocaust. On judgement day, I’m not responsible for anyone’s sins but mine.

What I mentioned earlier in this thread was about the takeover of a non-muslim regime. The non-muslims, even Jews, are offered: 1. enter islam willingly; 2. become a subject of the islamic regime, 3. go somewhere else, or 4. fight. This does not resemble the holocaust. I didn’t see any jizyah there.

The history of Spain is quoted as an example of Jews and Christians living peacefully under Muslim rule, and there are other examples. Mecca is an exception, though. Mecca is holy. I don’t think you can build a church in Mecca.

God knows best.

Sebastian Reed - 11 November 2008 04:25 PM

On judgement day, I’m not responsible for anyone’s sins but mine.

Hi Sebastian - how do you think you’ll do on judgment day?  I presume you admit you do have sins.

What is the judgment for Sin? Can you be sure you’ll avoid that judgment?  For the sins you have done, and you deserve judgment for, how do you avoid judgment?

Mike

Subhanallah. Glory be to God. I wrote for Andrew: “You’ll be gathered and thrown into Hell” because that’s part of the Quranic text and its to be used on the rejecters. So, I’ve used it. The warning to you is an essential part of the message.

The Qur’an mentions this. It is brought as a mercy to mankind, and a healing; as a reminder to the faithful, and to prove charges against disbelievers.

So, while I’m not the judge of anyone - as that is God - I must bring the true message of the Quran to the table, not a softened up one or a partial one.

If I did not, I would not be a fair Muslim, speaking for God’s sake. So, the lines about the hellfire: God knows best how they sit on your ears. I say them because they are within the dislogue recommended in the quran.

As for my own judgement - the matter is with Allah. He is the knower of the secrets of the hearts. My record is attached to my neck, as is yours. Each moment an angel records what I do, as they record what you do.

I do have sins. Muslims believe that everyone has sins. Why did the prophet Mohammad pray (peace be upon him) for forgiveness if he didn’t have sins. Prophets sin. Moses killed a man. He repented and was forgiven. God knows we sin. Adam sinned. He was tempted by satan.

Faith and works are the remedies on judgement day, as I understand it. These are what I must present for the right to get God’s mercy. Regular prayer, charity, and witnessing justice and truth are of the best works, according to the Qur’an. Also, kindness to the weak and humility and patience. Obedience is another biggie. God knows the best about it.

As the thread began: free-will is given, and judgement is fair. We are all responsible for what we do. No one shall bear the burden of another.

Prophets sin. Moses killed a man. He repented and was forgiven.

Glad to see you say so Seb.  In my experience Muslims are usually strenuous in claiming that all God’s prophets were perfect - e.g. they deny that David sinned as sadly recorded in 2 Samuel 11-12.