This text shows that God gives man free will (And I call to witness the self-conscious spirit), and that the burden of that is that man is to be judged according to his own choices: i.e: Thinketh man that he is to be left aimless?

In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

Is He (the maker) not able to give life to the dead?

The above text is from the English translation of the meanings of the Qur’an (Chapter 75). The Qur’an says it is a scripture from God confirming previous scriptures and that it is a mercy from the Lord of the worlds. I testify to this. I surrender to the Lord of the Worlds and testify that Muhammad is his messenger. From Sebastian Reed of Sydney.

Both my parents were born in Australia, and neither of them were followers of Muhammad, nor were their forefathers. I became Muslim by my own choice, after investigating the content of the Qur’an and contemplating it. Praise be to God.

G’day Sebastian,

Sebastian Reed - 10 November 2008 08:45 AM

The Qur’an says it is a scripture from God confirming previous scriptures and that it is a mercy from the Lord of the worlds.

The Qur’an does indeed say this, but can you demonstrate for us that this assertion is true, by reference to those previous scriptures that it confirms?

Cheers,

Timbo

Glory be to the creator of all things.

I think trying to answer your question is fraught with danger. I’ve see debates on YouTube, other websites, and I’ve seen in the Bible the references that I find as confirmations of this point.

However, the greatest confirmation I have found is not a line here or a line there. The greatest confirmation I’ve found is the Gospel itself, including the whole story from Adam to Judgement Day.

The story of Moses is given in the Qur’an about 6 or 8 times, each one with a small detail that is not in the others, and likewise the story of Abraham, the story of Adam, the story of Jesus, and the story of the resurrection.

These are the basic narratives from the Gospel of God that the Qur’an presents and repeats. There are also chapters which explain more about God and others that focus on human life and society.

It is the whole thing that is the most convincing, not any one essay or reference. There are websites which gives the opinions of scholars about where Christian doctrine differs from Islamic dotrine, and about where Mohammad is seen in the Bible, and so on, but these are weaker than the general assessment of the message that the Quran is presenting.

For example, a Christian may think that the most important message of the Quran is to refute the claims of Christians about Jesus, but this is not so. While it’s a significant thesis, its not the core of the religion. The following passage shows some core teachings of Islam:

Verily this Reading guides to that which is most right, and gives the Good News to the Believers who work deeds of righteousness, that they shall have a magnificent reward;
And to those who believe not in the Hereafter, it announces that We have prepared for them a Grievous Penalty.

Of all such things the evil is hateful in the sight of your Lord.
These are among the precepts of wisdom, which your Lord has revealed to you. Take not, with God, another object of worship, lest you should be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected.

(Quran 17:9-39)

This is taken from a chapter which mentions the Children of Israel, and the destiny for them, the gathering before the end times, and within the chapter it shows these core precepts of the Abrahamic faith. I hope this is an appropriate answer to your question.

Sebastian

Sebastian

Can you comment why there is such hatred to the Jews in Islam? After all, Jesus was a Jew, and the Jews, as with the Arabs, descended from Abraham. Why is the Arab world hell-bent on the Jew’s descrutction as exampled by the often quoted line, ‘we will drive them into the sea?

Also, given the clear statement by yourself (and Islam generally) that Islam aims to concquor the world - how best do you think we (Autsralians, the West etc) should respond to this goal? For example, should we limit Muslim immigration, restrict mosques and schools being built etc?

Putting it another way, how would Muslims treat me if I wished to promote a Christian school or church in down-town Makkah? If this was to be reviled, on what basis do you expect fair and reasonable treatment here in Australia?

Regards.

Andrew Tilsley - 10 November 2008 04:20 PM

Putting it another way, how would Muslims treat me if I wished to promote a Christian school or church in down-town Makkah? If this was to be reviled, on what basis do you expect fair and reasonable treatment here in Australia?

As a Christian Andrew, shouldn’t you aim to treat people and groups fairly and reasonably, regardless of how they treat you? I thought that Jesus had taken us beyond the ethic of “An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth”?

Josh, I agree...to a point. Where our basic freedoms become impacted by the rise of Islam, then I believe it is fair to ask difficult questions so people can see the true face of this religion. We hear so often the protests that it is peaceful, but in reality, it is anything but. I’m concerned that our fear over robust discussion gets in the way of truth.

I believe the folk on the forums have been very gracious to Sebastian. I also feel an iffinity to him, and I long for him to accept the message of Jesus and the cross. But let’s not kid ourselves about the events that are occuring around the world in the name of Allah. I think we need more than just a myriad of Koranic verses quoted, we need to be open and honest in our positions...lest we get nowhere.

Kind regards.

I think you miss my point Andrew. You complain about the fact that Christians can’t build a church in downtown Makkah and then you imply that perhaps Muslims shouldn’t expect to be able to build a mosque in Australia. It seems somewhat hypocritical for you to decry religious freedom in a Muslim country, but then suggest that religious freedom should perhaps be curtailed in Australia.

Josh, I’m merely using this as an example to highlight the flaws of Islam. Reciprocity is the issue. We presently do allow Muslim acivities, but I want question Sebastian as to how he see this, in light of the practices overseas.

Regards.

Andrew Tilsley - 10 November 2008 04:57 PM

Josh, I’m merely using this as an example to highlight the flaws of Islam. Reciprocity is the issue. We presently do allow Muslim acivities, but I want question Sebastian as to how he see this, in light of the practices overseas.

Andrew, you may do well to remember that less than a century ago, many job advertisements in Australia carried the additional caveat “Catholics need not apply”.

Josh,

There’s quite a difference between a country (perhaps crudely) conducting poor advertising, vs a country that wishes to establish a theocracy by force.

What is your main point anyway? I’m a little confused. Are you saying we don’t have any debate/discernment on the future of Australia...or just let everything go along as is?

Regards.

Andrew Tilsley - 10 November 2008 05:24 PM

There’s quite a difference between a country (perhaps crudely) conducting poor advertising, vs a country that wishes to establish a theocracy by force.

How does a country conduct “poor advertising”? What I’m talking about is an entire regime founded upon discriminatory legislation. I don’t really think that Australia can really take the moral highground here. That you omit to mention this shows that you are being somewhat selective in your analysis.

Andrew Tilsley - 10 November 2008 05:24 PM

What is your main point anyway? I’m a little confused. Are you saying we don’t have any debate/discernment on the future of Australia...or just let everything go along as is?

Why is criticism of someone’s perspective always viewed as a desire that discussion does not take place?

More to the point, what is your point? Are you suggesting that there should be restrictions placed on building mosques that don’t currently exist for churches and synagogues, or that we should not allow Islamic schools?

Praise be to God.

I’ll be frank because honesty is good and by being frank I want to highlight the truth; what I mean is that if being frank comes across blunt or arrogant, then it is only a byproduct (while the honesty is the main product). God sees all things.

The Quran says to “argue with them in ways that are better” and also to “call to the ways of your Lord with wisdom and fair preaching”, so it is commanded that I not insult or unnecessarily offend those who refute me.

When Andrew asks in an aggressive style, I’m quite willing to forbear and I don’t mind whether he abuse me or not, that simply comes with the territory. It is imperative, though, that proper discussion results, and a truth discovery process, or at least an orderly question / objection process takes place.

Without these proper processes visible, I’m not serving God by discussing Him. Weak argumentation (without respect or progress) is fuel for the fire of hell to burn up and I don’t want to author that content, so I welcome the questions from Andrew and anyone, although I note that Andrew’s question is off-topic.

======================

Anyway, now to the question posed, which I think is about building churches in Mecca and mosques in Australia.

A church in Mecca
===============

It would be best to consult the fatawa (religious rulings about this, because I’m sure it has been discussed, yet I’m not knowledgeable about that discussion).

With my own ignorant understanding, I would say that God would dislike that a church be built in Mecca, because it is a special place where only He is to be worshipped, while Christians attribute to Him attributes that are not his.

However admittedly I may be wrong. The people of the book are discussed in the Qur’an, and there are guidelines there for the Muslim-Christian interaction, and if God wills, I’ll do more research into it because I would like to know (for the sake of God).

Nevertheless it is clear from chapter 9 of the Qur’an, and others, that Christians can worship him in the way they think best as long as they become subjects of the muslim state or they move away to another place, even though on the day of judgement many of their acts of worship will not be accepted.

In this world, they can continue to worship in their way, even though on judgement day they will be told the truth of what they did. God is all aware. I recommend you take none as Lord but God.

The Qur’an says that the only religion acceptable before God is submission, yet that doesn’t mean that Muslims should wipe off the face of the earth everyone who isn’t a muslim. No. It is God who will reject, at the appointed time, all those who worshipped false gods.

A mosque in Australia
==================

I understand that God likes houses of worship built where his praises are to be celebrated morning and evening, as long as the house of worship is built on piety and is founded solely for his sake.

Some Muslims have already learned about the reactions of councils and other people in Australia (and overseas) and are used to the objections, yet God guarantees victory to the believers, and we understand that such trials are a test from God, so that we may prove our devotion to Him.

However, Muslims must not go beyond limits - an action can lose its status of being ‘in God’s path’ if limits are not kept. These are called trangressors. Some Muslims argue that Paul’s writing shows his disregard for certain divine laws, by the way, in his religious zeal. God knows best about the good and the error of Paul’s works, I’m simply making comment about what people reflected on and have interpreted in those works.

Rather, in relations with Christians, God recommends to use patience, prayer, and above all other things, our godfearing.

The Quran mentions in chapter 3, line 186, we are given techniques for use specifically against those of the people of the book who grieve us, and that is “to guard against evil and to be godfearing”.

A book called “The Muslims in Australia” by Bilal Clelland shows some of the history of council arguments, land environment court hearings, media campaigns, of Muslims in Australia, etc. and some of the ups and downs of AFIC. This is normal fare, though, for God’s work. Praise be to Him.

It is well explained in scripture, that He must put us through this process, in order to see who will get impatient, who will lose faith, etc., compared to those who trust in Him, serve Him and only Him, are honest, godfearing, just, etc.

The will of God to have humans worship only Him is clear, and He did not create us for other than that. Yet, those who wish to choose other paths, He has let us know that He lets them take their chosen path. He does not wrong them, but they wrong themselves.

Yet, it is said that his mercy precedes his wrath. Glory be to the Rahmaan, that is the Most Compassionate, which is one of the names of God He asks us to call Him by in the Quran.

Praise be to God.

I don’t want to alarm anyone, so I should add to the last post. Chapter 9 of the Qur’an is the heaviest, and it is called repentance, and its not for the faint-hearted. Yet, Andrew has mentioned that he wanted to ask the hard questions to know the hard answers.

The basic understanding of the Muslim takeover of another nation is that it is preferably willingly that the nation surrender to the merciful laws that God has written, which are indeed for all mankind.

No non-muslim is really a non-muslim until he or she has understood God’s message and contemplated it and rejected it, and God knows best who that applies to.

Anyway, as for the practical processes, I’ve never witnessed how it happens. Islam spreads wherever it goes, because truth naturally overcomes falsehood, but the manifestation of it is according to God’s time and other parameters that only He knows about.

Eventually, that is by the day of judgement, Islam will have reached everyone, and there are various end scenarios written of and some are considered more sound than others and so forth, many statements are attributed to the prophet Muhammad about the end times, yet it is best for me not to think about it too much because I have my hands full with these times, not those times.

Anyway, the point I want to make is that any and every part of the earth is the place for Islam to inhabit, but only when God is willing. God knows about the history of his earlier messengers and He knows best the process of implentation of his updates to those messages and the whole thing is up to Him. He is the best of planners.

At some point, though, Islam typically replaces the non-islamic regime. The others then either 1. enter islam, 2. become a state subject, and this includes a nominal tax, 3. go somewhere else, or 4. fight. God has sanctioned this, and I am not the most knowledgable one to speak about it, but this basic 4 option plan is commonly cited.

If you want further information about I could try to find some, but the Quran, the Quranic exegesis, and the historical reports of Islam’s spread through the last 1400 years are probably the best readings to look at. God knows best.

Thanks Sebastian, your honesty is appreciated.

Josh - I think I’ll leave your questions there....no need for us two to continue along those lines.

Sebastian,

You correctly cite in Ch 9 that Jews and Christians can practice their religions under the rules of Islam if they pay yearly tax.

However, on his death bed, Muhammad, as he drew his final breaths, said to his followers that two religions cannot exist in Saudi Arabia.

Can you help me understand this significant inconsistency with Muhammad’s hatred towards them being so high that caused him to [apparently] ignore his own holy scripture?

Related to this, is the ongoing issues [hatred] to Jews. As you have been gracious with your honesty, can I ask if you lean towards hating the Jews or loving the Jews? How does one reconcile the often repeated statement that Islam is patient and accepting, when Muslims around the world demonstrate such hatred for this people group? As I alluded to earlier, Jesus was a Jew. If you revere him, why not his people? Does this issue not go back to the very roots where there is conflict between God choosing one son over another from father Isaac?

Sebastian, may I apologise if you have taken my comments as attacks or aggression. You have been bold enough to visit the forums to expound on Islam. As Islam represents major differences with Christianity, I feel it is only fair that we exchange in the most open of fashions. I do so in this light - not to personally attack. As I have said earlier, I feel a love for you as a Christian should, and I hope for you to see the love of Christ in the Christians here.

Kind regards.

I was of the belief that Islam was traditionally tolerant of Judaism, and that current anti-Jewish sentiment is a response to the neo-colonial establishment of the Israeli state and its dispossession of the Palestinians from their land. With the rise of various nationalisms, the 20th Century saw a distinct narrowing of multicultural tolerance and diversity throughout the Middle East, so I believe.
Eric.

G’day Sebastian,

Sebastian Reed - 10 November 2008 03:04 PM

I think trying to answer your question is fraught with danger.

Indeed it is, because the claim that the Qur’an confirms the previous scriptures is fraught with danger. 

If I were to write (or recite) what I believed was a revelation from God and it contained sections that were in agreement with sections of the Bible, would that necessarily confirm the Bible? In order to confirm something, the new revelation would have to possess some kind of authority or power by which it proves or validates the original writing. What I was hoping you could provide is some indication of why or how the Qur’an confirms the earlier scriptures - apart from the fact that it says it does, for my revelation from God could just as easily claim to confirm the Bible and the Qur’an.

What is it that makes the revelation Muhammad received a better confirmation than the one I may have received, given that they both claim the same thing and both contain sections that are in agreement with some sections of the previous scriptures?

Cheers,

Timbo