The intro and first chapter of Doug Wilson’s new book ‘A Primer on Worship and Reformation’ is available in PDF here:

Well worth a read.

From ‘They’ll Know We Are Christians By Our Schlock.’

And then there are the Veggie Tales. What is the issue here? That would become abundantly clear if someone seriously suggested a Veggie Tales version of Beowulf, or Lord of the Rings, or Prince Caspian. Modern evangelicals are reverent of everything except their religion. Just try to picture Aragorn as a cucumber. What does that do to the ethos of the thing? Or imagine Aslan as a beet. “We couldn’t do that! It would wreck the story!” I see. Apparently, as far as modern evangelicals are concerned, the Bible doesn’t have a story to wreck. If misguided evangelicals were to try to bridge current tensions by making a primer on worship and reformation a Veggie Tales version of the Koran, they would all now be in hiding because of the fatwa declared against them. In short, the Muslims would respond with outrage over what had been perpetrated on their holy book. But we are not outraged for two reasons—first, we are clueless, and second, we did it to ourselves.

Folks defend Veggie Tales because they inculcate biblical moral values—but such values apart from reverence for who God is are nothing but hollow moralism. And moralism is always morally impotent. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, including all moral wisdom, and that fear cannot be effectually made obsolete by means of cute cartoon characters.

That might apply more to American Christians, but how about this one on relevance?:

The great argument advanced today in favor of such seeker sensitive worship is that we have to present the gospel to today’s unbeliever in a way that is relevant to him. But the word relevance, though it has a fine dictionary definition, really has to be understood as the battle cry of modern unbelief. This is not because the word itself is objectionable, but because liberals and their modern evangelical cousins have freighted it with a hidden system of weights and measures—in which the world, and not Scripture, determines the content of our faith and practice.

There are at least two kinds of irrelevance. One is the irrelevance of offering a bicycle to an oyster. But there is another kind of irrelevance entirely, and that is the practice of setting forth the gospel of light and righteousness to those who love their darkness and iniquity. We are commanded to be irrelevant in this second sense. We are called to worship God in a way that is pleasing to Him, and to which unbelievers will be attracted only if God moves them in a sovereign and mysterious way.

Michael Bull - 08 October 2008 02:34 PM

The great argument advanced today in favor of such seeker sensitive worship is that we have to present the gospel to today’s unbeliever in a way that is relevant to him.

As a visitor recently said - relevance isn’t about making the Gospel relevant but showing why it is relevant.

Mike

PS You’ve raised two (seemingly to me) very different topics in your post - I wonder if they are worth separating.

In the context of the chapter they come from they are related. The seeker sensitive para comes after an anecdote about attending a church where worship included the congregation dancing like garden sprinklers.

Michael Bull - 08 October 2008 02:34 PM

The intro and first chapter of Doug Wilson’s new book ‘A Primer on Worship and Reformation’ is available in PDF here:

Well worth a read.

From ‘They’ll Know We Are Christians By Our Schlock.’

And then there are the Veggie Tales. What is the issue here? That would become abundantly clear if someone seriously suggested a Veggie Tales version of Beowulf, or Lord of the Rings, or Prince Caspian. Modern evangelicals are reverent of everything except their religion. Just try to picture Aragorn as a cucumber. What does that do to the ethos of the thing? Or imagine Aslan as a beet. “We couldn’t do that! It would wreck the story!” I see. Apparently, as far as modern evangelicals are concerned, the Bible doesn’t have a story to wreck. If misguided evangelicals were to try to bridge current tensions by making a primer on worship and reformation a Veggie Tales version of the Koran, they would all now be in hiding because of the fatwa declared against them. In short, the Muslims would respond with outrage over what had been perpetrated on their holy book. But we are not outraged for two reasons—first, we are clueless, and second, we did it to ourselves.

Folks defend Veggie Tales because they inculcate biblical moral values—but such values apart from reverence for who God is are nothing but hollow moralism. And moralism is always morally impotent. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, including all moral wisdom, and that fear cannot be effectually made obsolete by means of cute cartoon characters.

Hi Michael,

I love VeggieTales (at least the earlier ones, I haven’t seen them all) so much I’ve been trying to avoid this one… guess the can’s been opened for me now :)

I actually don’t have a problem with using vegetables (or animals, or minerals) to represent Biblical characters.  The imagination of a child is a complex and beautiful thing, and I can’t think why Wilson seems to find it so irreverent to attempt to present the gospel in a way which captivates them.  I can’t speak so much for Beowulf or Tolkien, but using Wilson’s use of Aslan as an example in protest seems a bit careless.  Narnia, after all, is one of the greatest modern examples of Biblical allegory - it would certainly wreck the story to depict Aslan as a beet, although mainly because the character already depicts the Godhead as a lion!

Wilson does go on, though, to hit the deeper Veggie issue (the one about which I’ve been trying to bury my head in the sand) right on the noggin - regardless of what you think about having King David played by an asparagus, there’s just no excuse for going on to tell kids that the moral of the story of David & Goliath is that God helps little people to do big things (and therefore will help you too), or that it’s a story about ‘morality’ or me at all!  To their credit, they don’t do it every time,but most episodes do kind of end up as just another really cute way of telling kids to be nice to each other, to share, not to be greedy, etc etc, while losing the Gospel in translation along the way… Kids aren’t too small or dumb to be taught theology, bring back the catechism and get em while they’re young I say!!

Nicole :)

PS My kids can at least have all the Silly Songs with Larry they can handle… no use throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

...bring back the catechism and get em while they’re young I say!!

Well said. I think we underestimate what kids can cope with. We read the Bible ‘neat’ (unmixed) to Year 7s in Scripture! Veggie Tales cuts it with caffeine and sherbet.

Thankfully there are some fantastic and trustworthy resources out there for kids of every age… There’s a great book by Starr Meade called ”Training Hearts, Teaching Minds”, which is a family devotional based on the Shorter Westminster Catechism.  Our little one isn’t even born yet and I’m lining up to get a copy!!

n :)

Teaching Biblical truths with something other than biblical characters is actually a concept promoted by the Bible.  Take the story that Nathan the prophet used to confront David about his adultery and murder.  His story used a sheep belonging to another man instead of a wife belonging to another man.  The story was so powerful that David repented and wrote Psalm 51 in reply.

This to me is the same thing Phil Vischer does with his story telling vegetables.  He powerfully tells Bible stories in a way that engages people ranging from pre-schoolers to adults.  Admitedly Jesus is very rarely the focus of the stories, but then most of the Vegetales stories are Old Testament stories and focus on how God’s people are to relate to God, which is what he does.

Personally I was disappointed with the David and Goliath story called Dave and the Giant Pickle.  This was because the application was ‘even little guys can do big things when they trust in God’.  When I think the application should have been God’s people need to rely on God’s choosen King to be saved.

However their ‘Toy that saved Christmas’ and the ‘Easter Carol’ I thought did focus on Jesus because they were New Testament stories.

Personally I think the Vegetale series is to be recommended as a resource for children and really it is far better than what is aimed at children on T.V. most days of the week.

Hi Craig

I take your point. My kids love Veggie Tales too, although they are outgrowing it. Doug’s point is they fail to reverence the Scriptures and are reduced to impotent moralism, as good as moralism may be. Without the fear of God, they have as much moral influence as The Brady Bunch did on my generation. Zip.

Now, now Michael
Don’t you start trashing the Brady Bunch.  I just couldn’t bear it! :-)
Bob

Bob Cameron - 09 October 2008 12:36 AM

Now, now Michael
Don’t you start trashing the Brady Bunch.  I just couldn’t bear it! :-)
Bob

Lol.

With kids’ resources you’ve always got to tread a fine line between making something understandable, and keeping it faithful to the Bible’s intention.

There are a number of problems I’ve seen with resources like Veggie Tales:

1. Moralizing rather than being faithful to the bible’s message. Craig’s already mentioned a couple, but there’s also David and Bathsheba (who is devolved into a rubber duckie) which sends the message “Don’t be selfish!”, or Jonah which becomes “Don’t be afraid!”

2. Storylines that don’t end up fitting all that well. The storylines often try to domesticate the issues (e.g. King George and the Duckie - adultery becomes stealing someone else’s rubber duck), but this then creates problems with the supernatural working of God. So in Rack, Shack & Benny, there are big questions as to why it was necessary for the chocolate bunny factory workers to be thrown in the fire, and the storyline seemed to struggle a bit from that point on.

3. Creating confusion with kids as to what the bible actually says. This is fixed mainly by parents and teachers actually reading the bible accounts with kids to make sure they know the real story. But there can still be hangups ("so mum, you’re telling me that Nebuchadnezzar’s statue wasn’t a chocolate bunny????"). I’ve found this with other resources, too, like the Lost Sheep book series (most of which I love, but still have to explain that Zacchaeus wasn’t actually chosen last for the basketball team or taunted “Snorty snorty Zacchaeus is a shorty")

I don’t have problems with the moral tales as an alternative to the saturday morning cartoons etc. Madame Blueberry is rather cute. And Craig’s also pointed out the Christmas tales are OK. I just steer clear of the bible story adaptations if I can.

Imagine Nathan telling David the rubber ducky story to get him to repent. The story loses its Covenant context without blood and fear. David was supposed to be a shepherd to Israel, and a testimony to the Gentiles. Instead he stole a lamb (like Jacob’s wicked brothers) and made a Gentile his scapegoat. Big things going on under the surface here.

King George & the Ducky is a mixed bag for me - I really like their technique of using a toy duck to represent Bathsheba, kids can get their head around stealing a toy much better than adultery with the point being kept pretty much intact.  It’s a real shame that the story ends up with a ‘don’t be selfish’ moral though.

Am I right in saying that it seems to be the general consensus that there are better and worse episodes of VeggieTales, in terms of biblical accuracy and message?  Perhaps the key lesson here is, don’t assume that everything with the VeggieTales brand is a fantastic Christian resource, but don’t write it all off either - be judicious in selecting episodes, and be prepared to hold them carefully up against scripture (and include your kids when doing so).

Back to Michael’s OP though, I do agree that this issue is a good illustration of the bigger issue at hand, the seemingly unstoppable march of contemporary evangelicalism away from the gospel and towards moralism, seeker-sensitivity and the mainstream.  We’re incredibly lucky to be so protected from it here in Sydney (at least until Joel Osteen hits town next year)…

n

(edited for clarity)

Joel Osteen - M&M;theology. Makes Veggie Tales look like Calvin’s Institutes

Kristen Young said about the Vegetale movie

Jonah which becomes “Don’t be afraid!”

I think the repeated them in the Jonah movie is that God gives people a second chance and so should we.  Which I think Jesus teaches this point many times in his ministry.  For example the Lords Prayer, the story of unmerciful master, the illustration forgiving 70 x 7 times and so on.

My fear in Sydney Anglican Churches is that we don’t teach morals hardly at all.  So many sermons are about our personal salvation and so few are about how to live in a godly way in this world.  With people that are already converted it is good to remind them of the foundation of salvation but we must also take in what the Bible says about how to live as one of God’s people.

Vegetales are episodes that are made for Christian kids, and primarily addresses the issues kids face as they try to live out their life as one of God’s children.  This is evidenced by the beginning of most episodes starting by the reading of a letter from a child asking for advice on what God would have them do in a particular difficult situation.  These stories are not designed to convert non-christian kids but rather to disciple the christian ones.

Sometimes we need to be quicker to listen and slower to criticise.  The message in Vegetales is usually summed up by the verse quoted by ‘Qwerty’ the computer.  And I think this is usually a godly rule to live by.

As you can tell I’m fairly biased towards this material, and being a Children’s Pastor I’m also fairly passionate also.

Michael said

Imagine Nathan telling David the rubber ducky story to get him to repent.

In the Vegetales version Nathan told the story of a poor boy with one lamb and a rich man with huindreds of lambs.  And how the rich man took the lamb of the poor boy to give to his guest.  Exactly as in the Bible.

In the Vegetales version Nathan told the story of a poor boy with one lamb and a rich man with huindreds of lambs.  And how the rich man took the lamb of the poor boy to give to his guest.  Exactly as in the Bible.

But they make Bath-sheba a Bath ducky? The mind boggles.

Craig Thacker - 09 October 2008 06:19 PM

Kristen Young said about the Vegetale movie

Jonah which becomes “Don’t be afraid!”

I think the repeated them in the Jonah movie is that God gives people a second chance and so should we.  Which I think Jesus teaches this point many times in his ministry.  For example the Lords Prayer, the story of unmerciful master, the illustration forgiving 70 x 7 times and so on.

Sorry, Craig, you’re right. I was wrong about that one. :-)

My fear in Sydney Anglican Churches is that we don’t teach morals hardly at all.  So many sermons are about our personal salvation and so few are about how to live in a godly way in this world.  With people that are already converted it is good to remind them of the foundation of salvation but we must also take in what the Bible says about how to live as one of God’s people.

I agree completely. It’s a balance that we have to reach where we don’t shy away from application, but we also have to teach the bible properly. We can’t use the need to teach how to live God’s way as an excuse for shoddy exegesis. However, we also can’t hide behind academic rigor as an excuse to avoid teaching our children how to behave appropriately. That’s why I try to move beyond the general “God keeps his promises” message that comes through over and over and over in certain curricula(!). We can be so afraid of moralistic pharisaism that we avoid teaching moral behaviour altogether, which isn’t balanced. The pendulum has swung in both directions over the centuries (though more towards the academic rigor in more recent years).

Vegetales are episodes that are made for Christian kids, and primarily addresses the issues kids face as they try to live out their life as one of God’s children.  This is evidenced by the beginning of most episodes starting by the reading of a letter from a child asking for advice on what God would have them do in a particular difficult situation.  These stories are not designed to convert non-christian kids but rather to disciple the christian ones.

Veggie Tales airs on US TV aiming to reach all kids, whether christian or not. Their stated purpose is: “Our mission is to enhance the spiritual and moral fabric of society through creative media.” They’re not just talking to churched kids.

Sometimes we need to quicker to listen and slower to criticise.  The message in Vegetales is usually summed up by the verse quoted by ‘Qwerty’ the computer.  And I think this is usually a godly rule to live by.

As you can tell I’m fairly biased towards this material, and being a Children’s Pastor I’m also fairly passionate also.

Being a children’s leader, I’m also passionate about this! :-) My personal preference is to use material like Auto B Good, because it doesn’t mangle OT stories to make the point. I also like the Lost Sheep books that cover Jesus’ parables in a readable and engaging way (though some dramatic license is taken with some of the other biblical material, too). The Jungle Doctor stories are enduring favourites, and I’d love to see them brought back into wider circulation!

I appreciate the technical quality of the Veggie Tales, and am happy to use the stories like “God wants me to forgive them?” and “Madame Blueberry”. I think some of the silly songs are hilarious, and my kids love them too. I’m just a bit more hesitant about some of the OT treatments. I haven’t seen all of them though, so I must admit my judgement has been coloured by King George and the Ducky, Rack Shack and Benny etc. I’m happy to be corrected if there are episodes that are truly helpful.

What was the key message of the Esther episode, do you know?