1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
I’m having a discussion about the resurrection of our bodies with a friend of mine and I’m struggling to find reference to what I believe about our bodies after we die.
It is my understanding that after we die those in Christ spiritually go to be with Christ like the theif on the cross (Luke 23:43), but those that don’t know Christ go into a spiritual dungeon (1 Peter 3:19). Then when Christ returns the trumpet will sound and our bodies will be raised from the dead imperishable, that is, our earthly bodies will be raised.
However my friend suggests that as soon as we die we get our resurrection bodies and go either to paradise like the thief or to hell like Lazarus (Luke 16:23).
My objection to this is that the proof of the resurrection is that Jesus tomb is empty, and so His earthly body is raised. Therefore according to my thinking we will not get resurrection bodies until our earthly bodies are also raised.
But I thought there was a passage that suggested that on the Last Day my body, if in a tomb, would come out as a resurrection body, just like Jesus’ body. I can’t find a passage that says this, am I mistaken?
Sorry to bring this up especially in light of Hebrews 6:1-2 where this is really a topic for spiritual infants. However my opening quote to this thread was not sufficient to convince my friend so I am questioning my doctrine and willing to be changed if scripture suggests I should.
I’m having a discussion about the resurrection of our bodies with a friend of mine and I’m struggling to find reference to what I believe about our bodies after we die.
Hi Craig. Our earthly bodies will disappear in the sense that they are part of the recycled elements of this creation (as they are in life too). However, I’ll presume you’re asking what happens to our spiritual bodies both before and after resurrection and also what do we mean by ‘bodily’ resurrection (that we affirm in the Apostles Creed).
Starting with our resurrected bodies, 1 Cor 15:35-40 seems to clearly support a ‘bodily’ resurrection ...
But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.
It’s clear that out ‘heavenly’ or resurrected bodies will be quite unlike our current bodies, and our current bodies will simply be the germinal seed for our fully perfected resurrection bodies. Adding to this understanding that our resurrected bodies will be very different to our current bodies, Jesus indicated (Matt 22:30) that there will be no marriage (and presumably no procreation) in our resurrected bodies. So, while we’ll have discrete and recognisable bodies (reflecting to some degree the ‘seed’ of our current bodies), they’ll be radically different to what they are now.
You might ask why Jesus appeared after his resurrection in a body so similar to his earthly body? I would suggest that that was simply so he was identifiably Jesus and to affirm that he had indeed risen from the dead. I don’t believe that his resurrection body will always be that way, but it was necessary then. Likewise, the empty tomb was simply necessary to help convince his disciples of his resurrection, it wasn’t because Jesus needed his physical body for any part of his resurrected body (just as we won’t for our resurrected bodies).
Now, what about our spiritual bodies before the resurrection? The Bible seems to indicate in numerous places (eg 1 Cor 15:6; 1 Cor 15:20; 1 Thes 4:13-18; 2 Peter 3:4) that when we die we will ‘be asleep’ until final judgement.
1 Thess 4: 13-18
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.
..... my friend suggests that as soon as we die we get our resurrection bodies and go either to paradise like the thief or to hell like Lazarus (Luke 16:23)....
Regarding :
Luke 23:40-43 (NIV)
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”
I have long thought that what the thief on the cross was actually saying was : ‘( Later on ) please remember me ( then - at that future time )… ‘ - and Jesus’ reply meant : ‘Look, I don’t need to wait until then to remember you - I am telling you ‘right now’ ( i.e. today ) - that you will enter into the Kingdom with me ( at that future time ) [ along with everyone else who is saved ] ‘.
It makes sense to me. But am I wrong to interpret it like this ?
It makes sense to me. But am I wrong to interpret it like this ?
Hi Kevin. Regardless of where the comma is placed (and punctuation didn’t exist in the original manuscripts), we can’t read ‘today’ literally because Jesus didn’t rise from the grave for three days.
I don’t know what that has to do with it. He was talking ‘in the present’- as he was on the cross.
OK, evidently a miscommunication somewhere. What I was trying to say was that if Jesus meant literally “today [the thief] will be with [Jesus] in paradise” then there’d be a problem since although Jesus died on the cross on Friday, he wouldn’t be in paradise (heaven) for 2 more days (given he wasn’t risen from the grave until Sunday).
I don’t know what that has to do with it. He was talking ‘in the present’- as he was on the cross.
OK, evidently a miscommunication somewhere. What I was trying to say was that if Jesus meant literally “today [the thief] will be with [Jesus] in paradise” then there’d be a problem since although Jesus died on the cross on Friday, he wouldn’t be in paradise (heaven) for 2 more days (given he wasn’t risen from the grave until Sunday).
Sorry, Angus, but what difference does it make that Jesus wasn’t risen until the Sunday?
I really can’t follow your logic. Probably me, not you!
Which, to me, indicates that Jesus was talking “today” about a ‘future’ ( way off ) event. I now feel more reassured in my (and Andrew’s ) interpretation. Thanks.
1 Thess 4: 13-18 Thanks Angus I think this was the passage I was thinking of but I couldn’t remember any of the key words for my search. I think this passage suggests that our new bodies won’t come until the Last Day, which is the same day for everyone.
However I take the fallen asleep in Christ passages to be talking about the bodies of the believers not their souls/spirits. Say for example; Samuel being called by Saul and Samuel’s spirit speaks to him (1 Samuel 28), and the transfiguration of Moses and Elijah before Jesus in Matthew 17. Their spirits don’t seem to be sleeping, but very much awake. Though Samuel speaks like he has just been woken up. And why does Peter won’t to build shelters for spirits?
Another concern I have about getting a resurrection body as soon as we die is the examples of people that Jesus brought back to life during His earthly ministry. Did they have eternal bodies that were striped away from them so that they could have their earthly bodies back? I don’t think so. But then were they in Paradise enjoying the glory of God or were they asleep? If they were in Paradise I would have thought a description of heaven would have been nice to record for us, but if they were asleep this would explain the lack of description.
Hmm many questions.
From 1 Thessalonians
Where are the dead in Christ when the trumpet sounds? I’d say the grave, but is that an assumption because of my pre-existing doctrine? Or is that what the passage implies?
I’m still a little unclear on this, but thanks for the help so far it has prompted much more thought.
Hi Kevin
I have always read the Luke 23 quote from Jesus as meaning that he was in heaven that day although only spiritually. There is a problem with my understanding here in that Jesus says to Mary at the empty that he has not yet returned to be with the Father (John 20:17). Though this might mean he hasn’t returned permanently or bodily.
Sorry, Angus, but what difference does it make that Jesus wasn’t risen until the Sunday?
I wasn’t disagreeing with Kevin’s suggested translation of this verse.
There’s been debate for some time over where the comma should go in this verse. One option is to place the comma after ‘today’ (where today become an emphatic) as Kevin implicitly suggests:
“Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise”.
The other option (which most translations seem to prefer and that I was was pointing out has problems if taken literally) is to place the comma before ‘today’:
“Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise”.
Craig, could you please edit your post with the passage from 1 Thessalonians as is creating havoc with this thread. Please change the ‘code’ markup to ‘quote’ markup instead. Thanks.
Hi Kevin
I have always read the Luke 23 quote from Jesus as meaning that he was in heaven that day although only spiritually. There is a problem with my understanding here in that Jesus says to Mary at the empty that he has not yet returned to be with the Father (John 20:17). Though this might mean he hasn’t returned permanently or bodily.
Which points to my interpretation as being correct ? And more logical ?
Craig, could you please edit your post with the passage from 1 Thessalonians as is creating havoc with this thread. Please change the ‘code’ markup to ‘quote’ markup instead. Thanks.
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