Neil I agree about the church supporting them instead of rushing to condemn them.

The spouse who is the Believer has to have matured enough in Christ to take this step as well.  It may take some time for them to be able to fully understand and be sure of why they are taking these steps. 

Often Christians are too eager for new Believers to become obedient and show fruit almost straight away.  I’m a farm girl and it takes many years of nuturing a young fruit tree before it is able to produce fruit.  What I’m saying is it takes time.  My aim with my friends is to help them GROW in their faith and understanding of God’s Word.  Then I know they will want to respond to it with obedience.

Sin keeps us from growing, we need to deal with what is obviously going to hold us back. I know first hand and the sin doesn’t have to be as plain as the nose on your face either.  I spent years getting away with anger and other related behaviour for years by my Church Fellowship & Christian friends.  It was a non-Christian who finally took me to task over it.  Boy was I shocked and I tell you it really made a difference in my Christian walk when I dealt with it.  Still have to keep dealing with it from time to time.  However, until I was willing to let the Lord sort me out in that area I really found my Growth in God’s Word stunted.  The problem with sin is that you deal with one thing and then later God finds something else for you to give over to Him to be sorted out as well (it’s on going).  Can’t wait for heaven for then I’ll be made perfect, finally.

That is why I have so much patience to help my friends see their lives the way God sees them.  I want my Christian friends to realise what is Sin in their lives and then be willing to let God deal with it so they can Grow Christian maturity and get closer to the Lord.  For my friends this will only be one of the much needed first steps to living a life of obedience to God’s Word so they can produce Spiritual Fruit.

Mark
That was a very helpful post.  Thank you.
Bob

Another side of the coin here then is’ what is our reaction to those who are Christians who have been divorced, for some reason the church wont marry them and find themselves in a relationship with children?

Craig Bennett - 20 October 2008 12:11 PM

Another side of the coin here then is’ what is our reaction to those who are Christians who have been divorced, for some reason the church wont marry them and find themselves in a relationship with children?

Hey Craig, wasn’t the discussion complicated enough for you? :-)

Craig Bennett - 20 October 2008 12:11 PM

Another side of the coin here then is’ what is our reaction to those who are Christians who have been divorced, for some reason the church wont marry them and find themselves in a relationship with children?

I’m wondering what coins you use that have so many sides, Craig!

Cheers,
Andrew

Milica,

I think you and I agree… when I say push, I mean a strong push in the right direction - you can’t force anyone to do anything in a voluntary association like a church. It’s impossible. But it is our responsibility to move people towards godly behaviour when we can. God will convict their hearts, but Christian people are often the way that people learn how to live out that conviction, or realise that they need to be convicted of something!

If you aren’t going to try and push a brother or sister to righteous living, when they profess to follow Jesus, then you’re doing them a disservice IMO. God is in control utlimately.

Dear Craig;
Tempting as it is to let your question go through to the keeper (I’ve been listening to the cricket too much already!) I will make a brief response.

what is our reaction to those who are Christians who have been divorced, for some reason the church wont marry them and find themselves in a relationship with children?

My initial response is this- assuming the Christian person has been divorced (I will skip over any issues about legitimate grounds for divorce, and assume there are some), and if their local church won’t conduct a marriage ceremony, then I see no reason why the person shouldn’t go through a marriage ceremony before a civil celebrant, say. This would in my view make the couple married.
I guess the crucial issue is whether the church which refuses to conduct the ceremony is correct in its view about the validity of the divorce, as presumably they take the view that the person concerned should not have got a divorce and hence is in some sense “still married”. I must confess I haven’t sorted this out in my own mind yet, but I am tempted to say that if someone has been divorced under Australian law they are in all senses of the word divorced, and hence free to remarry (even if one might have the view that the divorce “ought not” to have happened.)
But I imagine I am simplistically skating over centuries of complicated debate. Still, my view is consistent with Jesus, for example, referring to the fact that people were allowed to divorce as a concession, despite this being not what Gd really wanted. That is, they may have done the wrong thing, but the validity of the divorce as an act of termination of the marriage was not really questioned.
Neil F

Hi Andrew. Well i suppose every coin has at least 3 sides, even more if we have one of those hexagonal 50cent pieces!

But I’m thinking more so of the way we minister to those in that situation....

Neil, I think you have shown an interesting solution to the problem, but would the church then recognise such marriage?

I think you’d get more joy hitting your hand with a hammer than working out the above problems… now, a trip to the shed…

Neil, I think you have shown an interesting solution to the problem, but would the church then recognise such marriage?

Craig, it depends what you mean by “the church”. If I am right and the effect of a divorce under Australian law is, for Christians living in Australia, a divorce as the Bible understands it (that is, even if we disagree with the grounds allowed under the law, we say that the effect of the event is that people are no longer married)- then that is what counts in terms of the ability of the people involved to remarry. I’m not so concerned with what “the church” thinks (defined either as “the denomination” or “the local congregation") but with what is true according to God’s word. Of course if I am to be in fellowship with people in my local congregation and they do not think I am properly married, then that will create some problems, and I will either need to persuade them that I am right, or else move to another congregation which does not take offence.
I don’t want to sound more confident than I am about my analysis, though. I may be able to be persuaded that the Bible implies something different to my current view. Still, that’s the way I see it at the moment.
Tentatively yours,
Neil F

Okay, Leigh. But why is it when you do hit your thumb, its your feet that leave the ground?

When i did ethics we were posed a true case study where a couple with children approached the pastor after becoming Christians. They had been legally married for a number or years and the children were around 9 - 10

The couple said to the pastor, we were both previously of the other sex, we have both had sex change ops, met each other and married and our children are adopted!

They continued, we love each other and the kids, this is our story, what do we do? What would your advice be in such a situation?

They might be hard questions, but the nature of ministering into society means that we have to have some understanding of what might happen to be able to respond to it!

Leigh Hardwick - 20 October 2008 08:23 PM

Milica,

I think you and I agree… when I say push, I mean a strong push in the right direction - you can’t force anyone to do anything in a voluntary association like a church. It’s impossible. But it is our responsibility to move people towards godly behaviour when we can. God will convict their hearts, but Christian people are often the way that people learn how to live out that conviction, or realise that they need to be convicted of something!

If you aren’t going to try and push a brother or sister to righteous living, when they profess to follow Jesus, then you’re doing them a disservice IMO. God is in control utlimately.

I see what you mean.  Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Yep I know what you mean, that you have to help people.  Most of us would sit in our complaceny if we could but God wants us to go forward with Him.  That is why He sends us people who care enough to give us the prod we need in the right direction.

We need to live Godly lives to be good examples to others, encourage and share God’s Word (not necessarily in that order).  It takes time and patience is the key.

It is too easy just to ignore Sin in the lives of our Christian Friends.  Sure we have to take care of our own glaring Sins first but we don’t have to wait to be Perfect before we tackle a friend’s area of Sin that concerns us.  We have to just becareful that our heart attitude and motive is right before doing so.

As I said before I’m not without Sin myself that is why I have patience to stick it out with my Christian friends over the long haul.  Eventually God works in their minds and their hearts to help them see what they are doing is not right in His eyes and enable them to want to change.  Then I can help them do so.

Yes you are right.

TIT 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

TIT 2:15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

Milica