Everyone must be over this by now, but the Dean’s excellent post on the 18 points inspired me to write a little more. Here’s my response to each of the points -

1. The Bible guys are not the missional guys, which leads to proud irrelevance

Yep, this is true, and it might be the most important point. The fact that we’ve tracked population growth while the rest of the Anglican church in Oz has collapsed has fooled us into thinking we were doing better at evangelism than we are. Many, many problems here, but some signs of hope too. Will need to be it’s own post.

2. Your culture struggles with a lack of entrepreneurialism

There’s some truth here, I don’t know that it’s a significant issue. I would like to see us encourage our people to attempt bold and creative things, a cultural shift is needed there.

3. There is a lack of reward based on merit within denominations

His main point here was that it’s very difficult to get rid of a lousy minister in the Anglican system. This is absolutely true, and it has hampered outreach. If we can’t change the system to shift the guys who need shifting, then we need to be bold about planting across parish boundaries, to make sure the right people are where they are needed.

4. Australian men are immature

I’m sure this is true, and the secular media has been discussing the extension of adolescence for years, so I don’t really see that this is a controversial point. By the power of Christ, we should be able to swim against our culture at this point.

5. Church planting is not welcome

He was speaking relative to other cities he has observed. What I will say is that church planting has been our key growth strategy for about 10 years now. Progress has been slow, but I think the pace is picking up. Recent events will accelerate it even further. I actually think the culture has changed in this area.

6. You suffer from tall poppy syndrome

Yep. We need to learn to respect our leaders, without falling into the gooey hero-worship you find in pentecostal and US churches.

7. The preaching here lacks three things: apologetics, mission and application

I really think he is right here. Preaching apologetically means preaching as if there is always an unbeliever listening. This used to be something my church was very good at, though we’ve dropped the ball a little bit recently. Mission should also always be on the agenda. And I agree that there are problems with our practice of application. People, senior people, in the diocese actually believe you should just explain the text and then let the Holy Spirit apply it. The fact is that God’s gives us teachers for a reason. The sermons that I find most life-changing are those that take the text and really push it up into my face.

8. Many of you are afraid of the Holy Spirit

This one has caused some controversy. There is some truth here. There are some words which, because they are so common in pentecostal circles, they’ve become almost taboo in our church. Words like “experience”, “heart”, “feel”, “worship”, “spiritual” and so on. As a young Anglican, I learnt to be very wary of these words, and I avoided using them if I wanted to be treated with credibility. I think some of these words need to be reclaimed. Piper has been very helpful in this regard, showing us all how to be Calvinists with hearts.

9. The Parish system is broken

Speaking of the traditional parish system, this is true. It impedes mission because it restricts how and where churches can be planted. However, it’s been pointed out to me that legislative remedies to this have been quietly put in place. I think it is just the culture still needs to catch up.

10. Denominations are built on control. Young men operate by influence

There is some truth to this. The Anglican system especially is built upon strict hierarchy. People in general, and Gen XY especially, perform far better when influence and inspiration are used rather than coercion.

11. There is a propensity to call the trained rather than train the called

His main point here was that it takes a lot of education before we let anyone do anything serious. I’d like to see more flexibility here. I’d like to see Moore offer serious part-time options. I’d like to see rectors appoint talented laymen to lead church plants. I’d like to see the archbishop willing to ordain people who haven’t followed the traditional path, where it is strategic to do so. Some of this is happening, I’d like to see more.

12. There is a shortage in Sydney of “Prophets” and “Kings”

By prophets he means preachers, and by kings me means those who are good at organisation and structures. I’m not sure about “prophets”, but we certainly lack “kings”. We discovered this when we started looking for an executive pastor, over a year ago now. We wanted basically an operational manager/chief of staff who also had a solid theological background. But our culture just doesn’t encourage this sort of combination. (some good news on the XP front soon, God willing)

13. There is a lack of missiologists; people who discern what is going on in the culture

That could be true. There are a few folk around who seem to understand our worldly culture pretty well, but we don’t seem to be able to translate that into practical evangelistic use. I’d have to see a “missiologist” in action to make up my mind on this point.

cont…

14. There is a proclivity to try and raise ministers before making them husbands and fathers

I tend to agree with this, but I wouldn’t make it a hard and fast rule. The sort of guy who wants a wife and can’t find one probably isn’t the ideal candidate for pastor. And the sort of guy who doesn’t want a wife because he is doing the Peter Pan thing, he probably isn’t ideal either. But there will be exceptions.

15. There is the doing of evangelism but not mission

Not sure, but his point seemed to be that mission should be done as a church rather than as an individual. If this is what he was saying, it is very similar to what Total Church were saying about evangelising “in packs”. I think there is some value in this idea.

16. There’s a lot of number 2 guys in number 1 slots

Yep. This is the flow on effect of point #3. As noted, change is needed.

17. There is not a great sense of urgency

I think this is very true. Often we are indistinguishable from the Sydney-siders around us. Do we really believe that God will one day judge the world? I sometimes wonder if we believe that with conviction.

18. Movements have become institutions and museums

Very true. Constant re-invention and pruning is needed to keep things fresh and fruitful. Some of the diocesan organisations perhaps need to be looked at.

Craig Schwarze - 26 September 2008 10:27 PM

3. There is a lack of reward based on merit within denominations

His main point here was that it’s very difficult to get rid of a lousy minister in the Anglican system. This is absolutely true, and it has hampered outreach. If we can’t change the system to shift the guys who need shifting, then we need to be bold about planting across parish boundaries, to make sure the right people are where they are needed.

I don’t fully disagree, but I do think that it is a mistake to think that a parish is a reward for merit. A “lousy minister” may in fact just be a man in the wrong position. So many people came through when you went to Moore, were deaconed and became an assistant minister, were priested and then got your own parish regardless of whether that suited your individual personality and skills. Hopefully under the current system many Moore graduates will never go along that path because their skills, personality and interests lie elsewhere and they will end up doing what really suits them and what they are realy good at.
Unfortunately, the square minister pegs in the round parochial holes would be mortified if they were moved away form their parishes-being a rector, presbyter or whatever you chose to call it, is their position and to be taken away from it, even if it was to a far more appropriate position, would be taken as a major insult.
I do agree that it is one of the things that hampers us but I think it will take time (and the retirement of the square pegs) for change.

4. Australian men are immature

I’m sure this is true, and the secular media has been discussing the extension of adolescence for years, so I don’t really see that this is a controversial point. By the power of Christ, we should be able to swim against our culture at this point.

Driscoll discussed this at BYPD as well. It is a correct point, and it was controversial for a number of the males I had spoken to afterwards.

Indeed.

Of course, I think the girls have 1 or 2 issues too, though Driscoll wasn’t addressing that…

I don’t think Driscoll would think, women by defintion are perfect, and men are horrible. The real issue is that there are so many men who abdicate the role of being the head of his household, and the effect is devastating.

Everytime I see the “18 Points” I keep thinking of the “95 Theses"…

Anyway…

You and I tend to agree on a lot of things Craig, so no surprise I agreed with most of your observations. The Dean’s piece was very balanced, probably more so that a lot of reaction I have seen (save this mornings Ang Media article). Some of the defensiveness on the web has been quite surprising I have to say.

Craig Schwarze - 26 September 2008 10:28 PM

15. There is the doing of evangelism but not mission

Not sure, but his point seemed to be that mission should be done as a church rather than as an individual. If this is what he was saying, it is very similar to what Total Church were saying about evangelising “in packs”. I think there is some value in this idea.

Driscoll’s point has become my view in recent times. We continue to plug away with sprucing up the Sunday service and then, wondering why more people are not turning up to said service, do a “mission week” involving something outside the 4 walls. Ask many laypeople and they have a deep sense of dis-ease about this approach as it seems so incongruous.

One point Timmis & Chester make in Total Church is that we must think of ourselves in the same way as a foreign missionary does going into somewhere like Turkey. The shape of mission will look very different. Mission becomes a day-by-day proposition, low key, consistent - not a once or twice a year big bang out of the blue.

Jeff Atack - 29 September 2008 11:53 AM

Everytime I see the “18 Points” I keep thinking of the “95 Theses"…

Anyway…



One point Timmis & Chester make in Total Church is that we must think of ourselves in the same way as a foreign missionary does going into somewhere like Turkey. The shape of mission will look very different. Mission becomes a day-by-day proposition, low key, consistent - not a once or twice a year big bang out of the blue.

This is really ironic, because SMBC has been saying this for decades…
(Shameless plug for the *other* college) ;)

Interesting...have they produced any literature or papers on this, Kirsten? I’d be keen to check them out…

Sorry, Craig, it’s more in the process of teaching. SMBC has (or did have when I was studying) compulsory mission subjects on issues like contextualisation of the gospel, understanding culture and redeeming culture through the gospel. The point is usually made that this is relevant to all ministry, not just international or the more “obvious” cross cultural mission. I’m not sure if any papers have been published more recently. Perhaps some of our current students might know?

14. There is a proclivity to try and raise ministers before making them husbands and fathers

I tend to agree with this, but I wouldn’t make it a hard and fast rule. The sort of guy who wants a wife and can’t find one probably isn’t the ideal candidate for pastor. And the sort of guy who doesn’t want a wife because he is doing the Peter Pan thing, he probably isn’t ideal either. But there will be exceptions.

Craig, according to your quote, that would have excluded the following people from the pastorate:
* Chappo
* John Stott
* Timothy
* Paul
* Jesus

It is also breathtakingly insensitive to those of us who are single. We live in a broken, sinful world. Things don’t work as they should - and that includes human relationships. Not all of us will find a spouse and have kids by the age of 22, and some of us eventually face the fact that we’ll never find a spouse. That doesn’t mean that we’re off on a Peter Pan trip nor (as the above list should indicate) does it reflect the abilities that God may give us to serve in his Kingdom, including in the role of Pastor.

Craig, according to your quote, that would have excluded the following people from the pastorate:
* Chappo
* John Stott
* Timothy
* Paul
* Jesus

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

I said there would be some exceptions.

It is also breathtakingly insensitive to those of us who are single

I’m single too Roger.

It is always interesting seeing how we look to others.
For years we have been told we are too radical & on the edge of Anglicanism.
GAFCON told us we were in the middle of Anglicanism (between the West & the Rest)
Now Driscoll has told us we are a denomination with some rigid structures and greying hair, and not as virile as our photographs make us think we are.
Youthworks tells us we have to do kids’ ministry in order to keep our 80% of parishioners who were converted before adulthood (whereas some more astute say that in the past we have been good at kids’ ministry, but maybe not so good at adult evangelism)
I like the Dean’s reflections on the process we need to undertake of considering the critique, without xsive navel gazing nor contempt.
We need wise zeal and zealous wisdom (not unbridled zeal or rocking chair wisdom).

19. We don’t use the word “proclivity” anywhere near enough.

:)

Good discussion, and constructive, thanks everyone for the encouragement. Now I have some serious praying and thinking to do because the area where I live is begging for an increase in mission . . .

Craig, my opposition to Mark Driscoll’s teaching on comes from my belief that his teaching is not supported by the Bible.

As a romantically clueless guy, I can’t tell you my relief when I heard my first sermon on 1 Corithians and realised that in God’s eyes, I wasn’t second class because I was single. In fact, in some ways, my singleness was an advantage, because it meant that I could be more single-minded in serving God than I could be if I was married.

That’s what I fear Driscoll’s teaching removes - the ability for singles to be content in their singleness. If you’re a guy, instead of being equal in God’s eyes to your married brothers in Christ, you must be an immature loser who won’t be mature in God’s eyes until they have a spouse. I’ve known singles who’ve become obsessed with the fact that they don’t have a partner, some almost to the point of idolatry. I fear that Driscoll’s teaching on singleness will make these people feel more inadequate, rather than grasping the true freedom that the gospel brings. 

As to how this relates to singleness and ministry, I don’t think that the Bible places the same importance on a church leader that Driscoll does. The list of qualifications for a elder,overseer and deacon in 1 Timothy 3 & Titus one talk about the eod “must be the husband of but one wife”, not “he must be married”. Surely the most important things we should be looking for in a Christian leader are a godly character, a passion for sharing the gospel and loving God’s people, and that other godly people think that they are up to the job. Whether or not they happen to have a ring on their finger should be immaterial.

Roger, my gut feeling is that if you were truly at peace with your singleness, you would not be offended by what Driscoll is saying. There is an element of generalisation and hyperbole in his words, but that is how effective speakers put across big ideas.

For the vast majority of people, they are called to marriage and it has always been that way. There are men (and women) who are called to singleness, but they are usually in the small minority.

Driscoll says that when a man tells him that he is called to be single, he asks, “How much do you masturbate? Do you look at porn? Uh huh, well, maybe you are *not* called to singleness after all...”

Anyway, I’ll be praying for you about this issue this week. Blessings.