Just one city from all of Africa, and none at all from the whole of S America.  The weirdness goes on....

Mark also made inaccurate remarks about Luther and Wesley’s use of music. The tiniest bit of Googling will show that it is not true that Luther used bar tunes or that Wesley took his music from the tavern.

But it is hard to get this message across.

[I’m not saying that this means we shouldn’t use secular tunes in church, by the way, just that this oft-cited canard is false.]

I think this is almost as popular, and equally as wrong, as the idea that the Bible has specific words for different kinds of love and that we should love God with AGAPH love, and not merely with PHILIA ...

I think the remarks made by Mark Drisoll re selfishness of Sydney could equally apply to other cities in Australia, for example here in Perth.  There is so much mining money flowing round over here it’s ridiculous - everyone (almost) has a boat, riverside or oceanside mansion, the holiday house down south (ie Margaret River), the flsh cars and the lifestyle, but talk to people and you discover their lives are desperately empty and lonely, especially the mine workers. 

They may be rich at $100K plus a year (minimum) but they have no meaning to life and they just want everything bigger better faster and me-er, as Alwin Ching noted above, and are highly self-absorbed.  It’s a very hard market to reach out to in evangelistic terms as they are all self made people and have all the toys you could want and more, are very self-absorbed, but are closed off from hearing about why they are so unhappy. 

I don’t know about Melbourne or Brisbane or other capital cities, having only lived and worked in Sydney and Perth, but I’d be very surprised if the story wasn’t them same there as well.  So I think Driscoll’s comments, despite the throw away lines, are pretty close to the bone.

Craig Schwarze - 21 August 2008 01:24 PM

Mark Driscoll didn’t hold back in his interview with Russell Powell -

I think it’s worth pointing out that the answers in that article are only summaries - fuller and more complete answers are in the video.

In particular, he says a lot more about the prosperity gospel, and how he has set up his church to guard against personality cult (for example - a bunch of structural things he has changed).

Mike

Hi All

I just watched the full video, and I think we’re being a little critical - unfairly.  So just a few comments (and not really having a go at the posters - just putting things in context)

...it’s unusual for a high profile visitor to be so critical

sure - but it’s worth pointing out this is right at the end of a 20 minute interview, where he is asked what Sydney needs to hear.  So in the context, I thought it fit very naturally.

I’m not sure how you compare the selfishness of cities

As Derek pointed out - his comments are really just personal comments - preparing to preach to our city.

Yummmmmmmmm shellfish....

yum.

All the stuff we’ve said about smoking, depression, and the most selfish city being a generalisation

really - it was said in a section of rhetoric pointing out how we are self-obsessed, and these are signs we’re not happy.  In the context of what he said - I thought it was perfectly valid.  Taken on their own, perhaps you could take issue - but I don’t think in context.  As Craig points out - it’s hyperbole.

As Kathryn pointed out - it’s likely we can apply the same sorts of statements to many western cities.

I can’t comment on the historical nature of hymns etc, and use of Luther.

Anyway, feel free to listen to the whole thing here, and make up your own mind.

(I ended up watching the whole thing after being disappointed by the reported answer to the question on personality cults.  But his answer in the video is longer, and makes a better defense.)

Mike

Concerning Luther and Wesley using bar tunes, see
Didn’t Martin Luther use drinking and bar tunes in his music?, Luther’s use of bar tunes, Didn’t Luther use a drinking song?, Bar tunes not Wesley’s way, and Luther and Calvin on music and worship

The last article is a scholarly one, and says that Luther did use secular tunes, but does not say that these tunes came from the tavern.

Dan Baynes - 21 August 2008 07:22 PM

Michael Canaris - 21 August 2008 04:15 PM

Then why did Belgrade make that list?

How many ethnic-cleansing refugees has it taken in of late?

More astonishingly, why did Gdynia make that list?  Never heard of it!  At first I thought it was an Oz city, viz. G’daynia or something ;)

The omission of Rome, Berlin and Moscow is also breathtaking.

Anyway I have no idea how they assigned to the poorer sections of the Monopoly board cities which are rich in reality, and vice-versa.

From what I can gather the cities on the Monopoly World Game had to vote themselves onto the list.

The reason I used the list as a surrogate for greed is that cities wanted to be on the board of the game that best demonstrates the virtues of greed.

If that does not, at least, exhibit a tacit acceptance of ‘greed is good’ I don’t know what does.

James

I wonder whether Mark’s first impressions of Sydney was similar to Oliver James’ experience.

SMH article - welcome to the selfish city

However I do suspect that Oliver James’ came with specific intent to plug his book. Nevertheless, I think it still proves a point.

Sydney does seem to be regularly associated with this ‘affluenza’/ME disease.

Mind you though… I do still love living in this city (prolly because I’m selfish and fit right in)

At the risk of taking this thread completely off-topic, since we are talking about Mark Driscoll’s video interview, was anyone else as disturbed as I was by the “vision” stories? I was really grateful that Russell asked the question, and not really all that happy with Mark’s answer.
Of course I didn’t want Mark to lie about having had these experiences- if he had them, he had them. But what I query is the wisdom of telling others about these experiences when you are in the position of leadership that Mark is. While Mark of course says that these things have to be tested against the Bible, I’m afraid my radar went on- because however much you say this, the tremendous temptation when you hear stories like this is to say that this bloke has a “direct line to God” and to be in awe. Sure, the “direct line” doesn’t work all the time- but humanly speaking one is tempted to say, wow, I’d better listen to this guy. Which means that if, God forbid, in years to come Mark drifts away from Biblical truth, there will be some who will be tempted to say- well, the Bible is a bit fuzzy here, I’ll just go with the guy who has the direct line.
I seem to recall a quote from one of Mark’s heroes, Spurgeon, touching on this issue. (Maybe some else who is a Spurgeon fan can give me the reference.) It was along the lines that if a shining angel appeared in church one day and announced to the congregation that Spurgeon was destined for heaven, that he would not thank him- for his assurance was based on what God had already said in his word.
So- I don’t deny God can reveal special insights to people when these insights are needed. But it seems to me that a Christian pastor and teacher should mostly just keep these to himself (I gather the only reason Russell asked the question was that Mark had put it in a book), following what I think is Paul’s example in 2 Cor 12:1-5.
That doesn’t mean I won’t be going along to hear Mark speak next Wednesday! I think it will even be worth the trip from Newcastle.
And if this is too far off topic someone who can do it should feel free to put it somewhere else.
Neil F

No, not really disturbed. I have lots of pentecostal friends, so I hear stuff like this all the time. Sometimes it’s a bit of wishful thinking, I reckon. But sometimes I hear stories that are hard to explain (like Marks) unless you allow that something out of the ordinary has happened.

Should you talk about it? Well, I would rather these things get discussed and examined openly rather than being kept secret. I though Russell gave a disproportionate amount of time to the subject in the interview, though. This sort of thing is not really what Mark is on about…