Hi all,
I think all these issues could be better debated in the light of what the early Church understood scripture to mean.  We are all using scripture to prove our point.  Lets also use early Church history to back up what was common practice as early as Ignatius of Antioch (one ofJohn’s buddies).

Donna,

Welcome to these forums.

The beauty of Christianity is that there is diversity within unity. This is true because we believe in a triune God. There is diversity within God Himself. Diversity can never ever be used as a reason to discount or undermine Christianity or its various denominations.

What needs to be examined is the official teachings of each denomination. How is that done? By using the scriptures with a humble heart.

Cheers
Angela

Hi Angela
Yes I agree, we search scripture with a humble heart.  If you are alluding that I am not being humble, my apologies.  I am on this forum not to change people’s minds, but to clear some obvious misunderstandings protestants have of the Catholic Church.  THis came about from my reading an article from Dean Jensen and later listening to his chat regarding Roman Catholicism.  He did not make a true representation of what the Catholic Church believes.  I suppose I would not expect him to as he is not Catholic. 
The point I was making regarding divisions cannot be answered satisfactorily by anyone if the case for sola scriptura is the base.  The Catholic Church believes that the Word of God is the written word and the oral tradition handed down from the apostles.  So in a sense it is scripture alone, because scripture also says: 1Tim3:14-15 -........"God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.....:  So the pillar of truth is the church.  The Catholic position.
2Thess 2:15..."So then, our brothers, stand firm and hold on to those truths which we taught you, both in our preaching and in our letter.” This scripture would indicate that truth is found both in oral tradition and the written tradition.  The Catholic position.
Regards

Angela Crittle - 19 July 2008 11:23 AM

The beauty of Christianity is that there is diversity within unity. This is true because we believe in a triune God. There is diversity within God Himself. Diversity can never ever be used as a reason to discount or undermine Christianity or its various denominations.

Hi Angela. I hope you’re not suggesting that there’s diversity in truth :). It seems to me that new denominations arise when there is irreconcilable doctrinal or behavioural error within the existing church body (and / or within the breakaway body). All institutions (and individuals within them) have failed to be fully obedient to our calling to live out the good news of Jesus’ kingdom through love and service, so these divisions are part of renewal - in a sense it’s God’s divine pruning and correction of his church. At the end of the day we all make judgement calls as to what are the bounds of faith with regards fellowship, but it is left to God to ultimately judge our genuine faith and obedience to his calling. In other words, using the metaphor of John 15, are we individually and collectively as a denomination (whether Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant) attached to the “true vine” of Jesus?

Angus Johnson - 19 July 2008 12:41 PM

It seems to me that new denominations arise when there is irreconcilable doctrinal or behavioural error within the existing church body (and / or within the breakaway body).

Could not agree more Angus. The key to understanding the blossoming of denominations under protestantism is the calcification, as Dean Jensen might put it, of a group’s position to one of perceived perfection. This is where the Holy Spirit/Bible/Jesus are put in a box and the ideas of men rule supreme in certain areas. As we see with the concept of the Magisterium withi the Roman Church, or the newly re-emerging liberal concepts withing the American Episcopal Church (not trying to open wound here, that grieves me more than you could know) or the Uniting Church here, or the “emergent” guys like McLaren, Pagitt, Bell et al. - It is when the “wisdom of men” which God declares foolishnes (1Cor 1:18-25) takes on the authority of a doctrine or (in the Roman discourse) of dogma, that God will say enough is enough and break out anew.
This doesn’t make all of these groups heretical, merely ossified in a “safe” position. To quote Wayne and Garth “we fear change” and as soon as a church starts saying “we’ve never done it that way before” they have decided to go no further and cement where God is allowed to work.
On the flip side when a church or group decides to invest time in an “open conversation” or dialogue about what it means to be a christian in a way that departs from the clear teachings of scripture then we enter into the realm of change for changes sake and trying to be “relevent” to a dying culuture that needs the church to be the light that shines from the city on the hill.
In Matthew 5 Jesus calls us to be salt and light, light shows the darkness for the darkness it is and salt stings in the wounds of sin. Let’s none of us forget that to failthully hold the middle ground between dead fundamentalism and dead liberalism we will be hated on both sides AND by the world.

Long first post I know but i needed to get that of my chest.
Bless you all
Steve

It doesn’t matter how much you flower it up, divisions are divisions.  Who is to say the new breakaway is correct or the old is correct.  It’s just opinions of men.  The very thing protestants claim the Catholic Church is based upon. 

The question of disunity amongst Christians has not been adequately answered.  You are all relying on your opinions when you say that a particular group has departed from a certain scripture etc.

Whilst Luther held on to many beliefs of the Catholic Church, he broke away.  Calvin had different views from Luther, so broke away. Zwingli likewise didn’t agree completely with Calvin.  Then the Anabaptists, etc, etc, etc.  All these ‘breakaways” would claim their interpretation of scripture was truly inspired by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Come on people - give me a better argument than that!

Hi Donna
To the extent that any of these groups you mention claim to be the one true church, they are wrong, just as the Roman Catholic Church would be wrong to assert it is the one true church.

David
You still miss the point.  Sola scriptura based on our individual interpretation whether guided by the Holy Spirit or not is an indefensible argument.  The Holy Spirit will not confuse.

Sola scriptura based on our individual interpretation ...

Hi Donna.

I’m sorry when people articulate Sola Scriptura in this way, because I don’t believe it is the historic Protestant teaching. I believe it is best expressed as the Bible is our ultimate authority. The Church and tradition and Bible teachers have an important role to play, but where they conflict, we know that the Bible is our ultimate authority.

I know this doesn’t satisfy you, but I believe it to be the proper expression of the doctrine.

I still see that no one tackles my question.

If you have the true Gospel, including justification by faith alone...where is it for the first fifteen centuries?

Where in the Bible does the exact phrase , used by Dean Jensen in his talk on Catholicism” faith alone “ occur?

Why does every Christian figure inside and outside the Church ( Wyclif, Huss, Waldo,Luther )before Calvin teach that baptism is the meaning of being born again?

Anglican bloggers do you accept “ one baptism for the remission of sins"as the actual episcopal authors of that clause in the Nicene Creed believed?

Do you agree with RC Sproul that the NT canon list is a fallible list of infallibe books?

Robert, have you read Pierced for our Transgressions? Many pre-Reformation authors are cited proclaiming “Reformation” teaching.

Robert ian Williams - 19 July 2008 05:26 PM

Where in the Bible does the exact phrase , used by Dean Jensen in his talk on Catholicism” faith alone “ occur?

Robert
It’s a flawed question.  Where does the word “trinity” occur in the Bible?  Nowhere.  It is an expression which summarises biblical teaching about the nature of God.  “Faith alone” is likewise an expression which summarises the biblical teaching about justification.
Bob

Robert,

Justification by faith is in the Old and New Testaments. The Bible speaks of it in many verses/passages. One of the best is the New Testament’s commentary on the history of justification by faith, which Paul gives in Romans 4:

1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Other OT references include Isaiah 43:25 and 44:22; Micah 7:19.

The NT is littered with passages on this topic. Here are some for your perusal Col 2;13, 14; Romans 3:20, 28; 4:1-9, 22-25; 5:8, 9; Gal 2:16.

Justification by faith is not just a New Testament teaching. I hope I have made that clear.

cheers
Angela

Donna,

Oh dear! I’m not commenting on your humility at all. I’m very sorry that you inferred that from my post. That was not my intention at all.

I mentioned humility because that it what God requires of all of us whatever our denomination. Otherwise how can any conversation proceed especially one dealing with such an important subject as this.

The written and oral tradition you speak of is? If the it is the bible (the written tradition) and the speaking of the gospel of Jesus Christ as recorded in the bible, then I agree with you.

Once again my apologies
Angela

Angus,

Rest assured. I am definitely not saying there is diversity in truth. I am saying that no-one has a monopoly on the truth other than God Himself. Also, that there is room for diversity in style of church service, songs, prayers and the like.

A Christian is free to attend any church which preaches the bible truthfully and in love. No-one denomination has a monopoly on this. When I lived in Sydney my family attended an Anglican-based church. Since moving to Wagga 15 years ago and trying out 3 different denominations, we settled on the Pressies.

cheers
Angela