Jeff Atack - 23 July 2008 05:43 PM

I reckon give up on this one Timbo...it’s annoying me now!

Maybe that’s why they declared those WYD annoyance laws !

Robert ian Williams - 23 July 2008 05:25 PM

As i have previously said...you could pray for your grandfather, but as recommending you to pray to him....

I have never asked if I could pray to him!!!! Only if I could ask him to pray for me!!!!

(Sigh)

I guess written comprehension just isn’t everyone’s strong point.

Too true, Jeff, I’ll let these extra wide of the mark deliveries go through to the keeper until a more accurate bowler comes along - Donna perhaps, from the Paddington end with a nice fresh nor’easter at her back.

Timbo

Tim
I will certainly need that nor easter after spending many hours responding to you and others.  I’m nearly there.  I hope the forum will be able to fit my responses because it is becoming quite lengthy. 

In regard to Robert, I have not really looked at what he said and what you asked.  So I am not able to comment on it.  There are so many posts, I haven’t been able to locate the original question or statement and because I am focusing on the task ahead of me I have not taken much in regarding the debate between you and Robert.  In any case, Robert can handle himself quite well.  Perhaps I could add something when I am able to take a closer look at the issue.

Donna

Tim,

Thanks for the clarification. And for your clear posts on this thread.

cheers
Angela

Indeed all Christians prior to the Reformation invoked the Saints..and had been dong so sice the first century. It is an Apostolic practice, which comes to us in Scripture ( although like a Baptist who cannot see infant baptism) although you can’t or won’t see it.

I must be blind… where is it described in the Scriptures, Robert? Please tell me, so I can see as you see.

I cannot see it as a dominical teaching. Jesus taught his disciples to pray to the Father (Matthew 7:9; John 16:23), and also to ask him (John 14:13) which he will then do. Also he will ask the Father to send the Advocate (John 14:16).
If anything, the pattern of asking directly to the Father, not needing another to ask on our behalf, is stated by Jesus in John 16:26. Such is the love our Father has for us (John 16:27) that Jesus has opened direct access in his name to the Father.

So we can ask Jesus, & He will give, and we can ask the Father in Jesus’ name, and He will give. But we are not to ask Jesus to ask His Father, instead we are to pray ourselves.

However, in John 17, Jesus prays for the living disciples & the future followers. So it is still legitimate to have intercessory prayers for others(17:20). The question comes, can the deceased intercede for us?
Jesus has not taught that, as far as I can see in the Gospels. Rather, he has denied that we should ask him to ask the Father, instead we are to ask Jesus or ask the Father.

Is there a case of a deceased person (apart from the risen Lord) being requested to pray for a living person in Acts? Not that I can see.

Romans… no
1 & 2 Corinthians ... no
Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians… no
1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon ... no
Hebrews, James, 1 & 2 Peter, 1, 2, 3 John, Jude ... no
Revelation… no

What passages am I blind to?

Robert, The Holy Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saains upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints inn heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Robert,
Thank you for your quotes.
First to be a bit picky, the Psalms you quote are technically not “apostolic practice”. However, let’s continue…

Of course the holy angels will praise the Lord. They rejoice when sinners repent etc. When the Psalmist encourages everyone to praise the Lord, the list includes everything, not only things with breath (as per Psalm 150:6), but all of creation, and every created being(Psalm 148).
Why does Psalm 148 call on them to praise the Lord? Because God created them, & he alone is exalted & glorified & he has raised a horn for his people. It is a call to praise God for His works, not a call for prayer of intercession. Otherwise it proves too much & you should also be invocating the sea monsters of the deep (148:7) and fire, hail, snow, frost & stormy winds as well (148:7).

Once again in Psalm 103, we have a Psalm of praise, asking people to bless the Lord because of his work and love towards us. Then in a major flourish at the end he broadens the call for praise (blessing the Lord) to the angels in heaven, & then in verse 22 to all his works in all places of his dominion, with a final appeal to his own soul. Notice it is not a call for prayers of intercession, but to praise God for who he is and what he has done. And it could be argued once again that it proves too much for you by invoking all his works (including plants, animals, rocks) to bless the Lord.

Time has run out. I will comment on the “apostolic practice” of what the angels and saints in Revelation appear to be doing in the near future. But Robert, the quotes from Revelation are certainly not what I would call “apostolic practice”.

Hi everyone.

I am a bemused Anglican!  The idea that we can simply sit on on our faith in salvation, without more, and be absolutely confident in being saved, seems to me to be patently unscriptural when one considers all the competing passages, and, I might add, contrary to commonsense.

Why did Christ teach us confidently to pray:

“Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them that trespass against us”?

I have not seen this one addressed anywhere. Indeed, why do we ask for our sins to be forgiven at all - let alone conditionally on our forgiving the sins of others - if they are already, finally forgiven by our faith (as the Calvinists do vainly claim)?

Cheers, Tom

Tom Blackburn - 24 July 2008 10:47 AM

Hi everyone.

I am a bemused Anglican!  The idea that we can simply sit on on our faith in salvation, without more, and be absolutely confident in being saved, seems to me to be patently unscriptural when one considers all the competing passages, and, I might add, contrary to commonsense.

Tom I agree, the idea you have described here is indeed unscriptural.  The funny thing is that it’s only those who appear to be opposed to Reformed teaching who assert such a thing - i.e., they put words in our mouths.  Calvin certainly never taught that we can “simply sit on our faith”.  He would find such an idea offensive and would rail against it!

Why did Christ teach us confidently to pray:
“Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them that trespass against us”?

The point that Jesus seems to be making in Matthew 6:12 (which is illustrated very powerfully in the parable of Matt 18:21-35) is this:  If we, having asked God to forgive us, do not develop a forgiving heart towards others, then our hearts betray us.  We may have looked like we were genuinely sorry for our own rebellion toward God; we may have appeared to have genuinely sought God’s forgiveness; but it’s just a big sham.

The person who cannot forgive is incapable of receiving God’s forgiveness - his/her heart is hardened, and incapable of responding to the forgiving love of God.  This is not a doctrine of some kind of work called forgiving, but rather an observation about the inseparability between a proper apprehension of the forgiveness offered in the gospel and the outflow of that apprehension in forgiveness towards others.

Regards,

Bob

Thanks Bob. I suppose in these forums we all have to be careful to strive to understand exactly what the other is saying. That applies to me in particular.

What I was trying to say is that the inescapable fact is that we will all go on sinning, whether we have faith or not.

Given we will all go on sinning, to believe that we are certain of salvation, irrespective of subsequent (inevitable) sin, necessarily means that we believe that we will be saved if we maintain our faith in salvation, irrespective of what we (inevitably) do subsequently. This is what I read in these pages. I don’t think anything in the 39 Articles compels me to adhere to such a view.

I can’t accept your exposition of the Lord’s Prayer. It seems to me it is entirely clear: we are directed to ask God to forgive our sins, in proportion as we forgive the sins of others against us.

This seems to me yet another reason why Scripture in its totality, properly understood and bearing in mind that it cannot be contradictory, does not support some of the ideas I see in these pages. But let me assure you that on most things I think we are of a like mind.

Work (not works!) means that It may be a while before I can deal with any response.

Tom

Tom Blackburn - 24 July 2008 10:47 AM

I am a bemused Anglican!  The idea that we can simply sit on on our faith in salvation, without more, and be absolutely confident in being saved, seems to me to be patently unscriptural when one considers all the competing passages, and, I might add, contrary to commonsense.

Hi Tom, and firstly welcome to the SydAng forums.
I recently answered a similar question in another thread, so it might be simplest to point you to the discussion there to see if that clarifies your concerns regarding current teaching. I also made a follow up post later in that thread that further clarifies my first post.

Why did Christ teach us confidently to pray:
“Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them that trespass against us”? ... Indeed, why do we ask for our sins to be forgiven at all - let alone conditionally on our forgiving the sins of others - if they are already, finally forgiven by our faith (as the Calvinists do vainly claim)?

Forgiving sins committed against us is quite different to forgiving sins against God which we can’t forgive (that is between the other person and God). We can and should forgive sins committed against each other including forgiving non-believers when they do us harm (Mark 11:25). I believe this is for our good and is necessary even if the wrongdoer does not seek forgiveness. Not forgiving risks us becoming enslaved to hate and anger, so we must leave judgement of others to God who knows the hearts of all.

On the topic of forgiveness, I’ve just listened to a very fascinating interview of George Ellis, (and the direct link to the downloadable mp3 file - 48MB), a world renowned scientist and Christian thinker who explores the idea of “Kenosis” (humbling or emptying oneself as exemplified by Jesus). His theology (he’s a quaker) is surprisingly ecumenical, but this I believe supports his premise that just as there are universal laws of physics there appears to be universal laws of ethics too. (This of course doesn’t contradict the uniqueness and divinity of Jesus, nor the significance of Jesus death.)

Hi Angus.

Because Protestants often unhelpfully omit this full statement, we are somewhat understandably accused of professing a “bar code” faith - that as long as we “believe” it doesn’t matter if we have “works” or not. However, the balanced Protestant position affirms that we will be judged by our faith, and the evidence that that faith was genuine - good works (ie lives of love and service) that result from the Holy Spirit working within us. Protestants firmly deny that we can in any way “earn” salvation and our “works” are simply the consequence of the Holy Spirit working though us as we cooperate with him and are “sanctified” by his presence.

“Judged by (our faith and). . . the evidence that our faith was genuine”? God doesn’t need to sift the evidence. he knows if our faith was genuine.

Angus, you either mean that God will judge us on the basis of our faith and good deeds, or you mean that works are important to salvation only in a very artificial sense: that works are the outward sign of true faith.

If you mean the latter, then you are really saying that faith by itself is enough for salvation, without some effort not to sin.  If you are saying the former, that is, well, the catholic position.

While I would hate to misunderstand anyone’s position, I read a great deal here about “certainty”.  As I said: given it is inevitable that we will go on sinning, the only way we can be “certain” of salvtion is if our faith in salvation alone is sufficient for salvation. Angus, if you subscribe to this “certainty” campaign, you can’t escape this dilemma, and I don’t say this to be needlessly provocative.

If you are saying that good works are the inevitable by-product of faith, it is meaningless to say that works are in any actual sense necessary to salvation, as good works are merely a consequence of faith, as you maintain.

I am still puzzled why Christ’s clear injunction to ask for God’s forgiveness for our sins at all, let alone in proportion to our forgiveness of others’ sins against us, is necessary if we are already forgiven.

( BTW It really may be a while before I come on stream again!)

Tom

Can we be certain that we will be saved?

I’m confident that we can be, provided that we adhere to what the Bible itself says on this.

Some Christians like the slogan Once Saved, Always Saved and believe that, belief in Jesus’ death and resurrection means we are saved eternally no matter what we do. Even if we turn our backs on Christ and stop believing.

But this is not taught in the Bible. Over and over the NT speakers and writers urge us to keep on believing, and keep on obeying God’s Word and keep running the race to the end. This is the big point of the book of Hebrews.

In 1 John we are told that we have assurance based on
1. Jesus death for our sins,
2. the witness of the Holy Spirit, dwelling within us that we are God’s children, and

3. because we show our love for God by keeping his commandments.

Our good works emanating from our faith in Christ, produced in us by God, are evidence that that we have forgiveness and belong to Christ.

This is a three-legged stool, and the death of Jesus for us is the most important leg, but not the only leg. All three are essential.

But ... [I hear you ask]
what if I sin today? Does this mean I’m not saved? What if I turn away for a period of time?

A person who has turned his back on God has no assurance of salvation while he is in that state.

A person who enjoys sin and continues in it has no assurance.

But a person who sins, but hates it, who turns away, but returns to God, has God’s assurance that he forgives us our sins and cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

Tom Blackburn - 24 July 2008 12:35 PM

“Judged by (our faith and). . . the evidence that our faith was genuine”? God doesn’t need to sift the evidence. he knows if our faith was genuine.

Hi again Tom. Yes, God already knows the genuineness of our faith so he certainly doesn’t need to convince himself of that. We have to understand this in the context of God being a just judge, who demonstrates to the guilty the evidence of their crimes so they have no avenue to delude themselves of their own innocence (eg Matt 25:41-46).

Tom, three quick comments for when you get back:

1) Welcome to the forums! and apologies for not doing so in my previous response to you.

2) Quite right, God does not need evidence of our faith, as he does indeed know.  Good works (Eph 2:10), the fruit of the spirit (Gal 5:22-23), love (John 13:35) and other evidences of faith and of the work of God within us, confirm us in our own faith (e.g., 1 Jn 3:14), encourage the brethren (Heb 10:24-25), and bear witness to the world (e.g., 1 Pet 2:11-12).

3) If you don’t believe certainty of our salvation is possible for people who still sin, how do you understand verses such as 1 John 5:13 (in the light of 1 John 1:8-9)?

Bob