Donna Green - 21 July 2008 01:08 PM

I’m not sure where I have stated that what Robert or Jude said was against the teaching of the Catholic Church.

You didn’t, and I didn’t say that you did. What I said was that given that both Robert ian Williams and Jude Jones had clearly expressed beliefs that were in opposition to the official teaching of the chiurch of Rome as you have explained it (Robert regarding praying to saints rather than asking them to pray for us, Jude regarding the eucharist as actually being Christ sacrificied over and over again in post #106 on the World Youth Day Sydney 2008 thread on 17 July 2008 11:13 a.m.), would you seek to advise them that they have made an error in their beliefs.

Donna Green - 21 July 2008 01:08 PM

I don’t sek to correct any protestant

Then why are you telling me my views are wrong? Isn’t that seeking to correct me? Be assured that I have no problem whatsoever with you seeking to correct what you see as any incorrect views that I hold - that is an entirely biblical, loving thing to do for a fellow believer.

Donna Green - 21 July 2008 01:08 PM

I think you misunderstood what I was saying about the passage in Hebrews and also in Revelations.  The saints in heaven can pray for us.  Just like you can pray for me.

Yes, I certainly did misunderstand you - when you wrote “No need to pray in Heaven” in post #82 on this thread, I took you to mean the saints in heaven would not be praying, rather than that they would be praying. Do you accept the comments I made in my post #94 about your interpretation of Luke 16, Hebrews 12 and Revelation 5? If not, why not?

Donna Green - 21 July 2008 01:08 PM

When I ask you to pray for me, am I committing a sin.

No, becasue we are still both alive here on Earth, so I can hear your request. If I have died and am now in heaven, we are back to the issue I keep pressing for some solid biblical evidence for, namely how can I hear your request?

Cheers,

Timbo

Timbo, people that are dead in the lord are more alive than you and me...the prayer of a righteous man availeth much.. By your theoligy, asking you to pray for me, would be to detract from the Lordship of and mediatorial role of the Lord Jesus Christ. However throughout the NT we are encouraged to pray fror each other.

I did not contradict Catlolic theologty when I prayed before the tomb of Catherine of Aragon.

May the souls of the faithful departed through the mercy of God rest in peace. Eternal rest grant unto her O lord, and may perpetual light shine upon her.

And then I added conditionally...If you are now in heaven, please pray for me.

And I believeiin the Communion of Saints..

Death cannot separate us from those of our loved ones in Christ.

It is also catholic teaching that the prayers fro the dead would be diverted to another wanting soul if Catherine has translated to heaven.

Hope that is helpful

To imagine that Mary, or any other deceased person, absent from the body but present with the Lord, is able to hear the prayers of millions of people on earth at once, is to assume they have divine attributes. This is idolatrous blasphemy. 

God is aware they are living with him, but still prohibits prayer to them.

To pray to an angel is the same.

God instructs us in his word, the Bible, that prayer should be offered to God the Father, through our only mediator and high priest Jesus Christ, in and through the Holy Spirit.

Mary is not the queen of heaven, nor a mediatrix, but one of a great multitude of sinners who have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus. Their activity in heaven is praising their Creator and Redeemer, not hearing the prayers of us on earth, or interceding for us in response to our prayers.

Also, to pray FOR a deceased person is to dishonour God’s word. The Bible teaches that If they were believers and saved, they are safe with the Lord, and do not need any further help.  There is no such place as purgatory from which they need to be rescued.  If they were rejecters of Christ on earth, they are in hell, and all our prayers can not help them.

Robert,

I appreciate that you are probably trying to sincerely answer my questions, but three times I have put a very straightforward question to you (can I ask my deceased, faithfully Christian grandfather to pray for me now that he is heaven) that you have either not recognised, misunderstood or ignored. I would like to continue seeking answers from you in my efforts to try and understand better the basis that Catholics have for their beliefs, but in all honesty it is a lot of time and effort for very little gain. Each of your replies just floats further unsubstantiated assertions more than it answers my questions, such that my confusion about how it is that you arrive at your beliefs is only getting deeper.

Until such time as you show that you can actually engage and respond with the questions and discussions occurring in these forums, I will, reluctantly, be viewing your posts in the “polite indifference” category along with Jude Jones; that is, I won’t be directing any questions or inquiries to you directly, although I will continue to read and consider your posts. Your fellow Catholic believer Donna Green is making a much better fist of actually responding to the issues that people are raising with her.

Rest assured you retain my welcome to these forums and I do hope you will continue to contribute here. I am more than happy to respond to any questions you would like to directly raise with me.

Cheers,

Timbo

Dear Frank
I would like to try and answer your objections you raised.  However, I am quickly learning that you cannot give quick responses on this forum because it does not satisfy.  Fair enough.  If you are patient, I will do my best to give the best explanation I can give.  I could also recommend books which give scriptural basis for Catholic claims, even a whole book dedicated to Mary.  My experience is that most protestant friends are reluctant to read anything that gives credence to Catholic claims.  Yet, I am willing to read their books (I do this for two reasons: 1. To show I am open and willing to hear what they have to say; and 2. To demonstrate a sense of fairness).  Please be patient. I shall return!

Donna thank you for your courtesy.  I believe you are sincerely seeking the truth.  May the Holy Spirit guide you.  The only place to look for an answer to these questions is the Bible itself.  God’s word takes priority over man’s. 
“Here I stand”. Blessings to you.. Frank

Frank,
Thank you.  My intention is to use scripture as, I thought I made clear in my initial post to you.  It seems, however, when I use scripture, people on this forum say “no your incorrect”; or “I don’t think that was meant by that passage”.  It seems protestants can use scripture in anyway they like and have the imprimatur stamped all over it, but when a Catholic does it, it never seems good enough.  Who decides for a protestant that their interpretation of scripture is the correct one. How can we truly know that our interpretation is guided by the Holy Spirit.

We can never truly know that our beliefs and ideas are orthodox. We must always be willing to hear and consider alternatives and test our current understandings against other parts of scripture, whether the challenges come from Christians we know and trust, ones we don’t know so well or from other denominations and even from non-Christians.

I’m sorry Timbo, but I have sincerely tried to answer your question and I really have nothing more to add. IOnly apologiise thatnmy ignorance at what you mean is genuine. I am glad that you are enjoying Donna, Isn’t she wonderful..and unlike me she can write coherent English and type correctly!

However isn’t it wonderful that Sydney Media allow this free exchange..I take my hat off to them for their fairness, courtesy and purpose.

Hi Robert

Yes Thank God for Sydney Anglicans allowing us to share like this.

Hi Danii
although peripheral subjects in the Bible are debatable, the essentials are clear. 
1JN 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

2 Cor 5 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1CO 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

But a humble teachable attitude is needed:
LK 10:21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

I believe the essentials are clear, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t still study and test our understandings of them. For example, NT Wright has argued that we’ve misunderstood Paul a lot. Now I’ve only looked at his claims at the most simplest level, but I agree with the traditional understanding not because it’s the traditional understanding but because those who oppose Wright seem to have the stronger argument.

Robert wrote:

By your theoligy, asking you to pray for me, would be to detract from the Lordship of and mediatorial role of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I would like to answer this assertion. It is wrong and one which greatly grieves me.

One of the reasons Christians, including Protestants, do pray directly to God is because God is the Sovereign ruler of everyone and everything. A huge claim isn’t it but one which God Himself makes and proves in the bible and in history. If God isn’t in control of this world then why bother? BTW, another reason is because God commands us to pray and Jesus taught us to do so by praying directly to God as our heavenly Father.

Angela

Angela,

I wouldn’t get too hung hung up on what Robert has interpreted my theology to be. As you may have seen in the previous discussion between Robert and myself on this thread, Robert failed to answer a question I put to him three times. Namely, that seeing as my faithful Christian grandfather has died and is now (presumably) a saint in heaven along with Mary the mother of Jesus, the apostle Peter, etc, could I ask my grandfather to pray to God for me just as Robert as a practising Roman Catholic believer presumably asks Mary the mother of Jesus to pray to God for him (although he indicated that he prays to her, as opposed to asking her to pray to God for him as encouraged by official Roman Catholic teaching - something that Donna Green has interestingly so far declined to call him on, even when I pointed out the discrepancy to her).

Robert variously answered that it would be fine to pray for my uncle, that I should not pray to my grandfather, and finally that he could not see how he had not answered my question, even after I had underlined and put in bold the specific question I was asking and emphasised how his previous replies had missed the point.

Rest assured that I understand that my belief that it is entirely appropriate to ask fellow believers here on Earth to pray to God for us in no way detracts from the lordship and mediatorial role of the Lord Jesus Christ, even if Robert doesn’t see how it could be so.

Cheers,

Timbo

As i have previously said...you could pray for your grandfather, but as recommending you to pray to him...I know nothing of him. For instance with Queen Catherine, we have the clear record of history, of our life and witness to fidelity.

In the Church we have a special day for all specifically non- named Saints,The Feast of All Saints.

Strange that you believe that you can intercede for other people at their request..but believe that is not the prerogative of just men made perfect in Heaven a cloud of witnesses vcheering us on in the race below ..given Revelation chapter 5...a perfect picture of the old and new Covenant Church in Heaven.

Indeed all Christians prior to the Reformation invoked the Saints..and had been dong so sice the first century. It is an Apostolic practice, which comes to us in Scripture ( although like a Baptist who cannot see infant baptism) although you can’t or won’t see it.

I reckon give up on this one Timbo...it’s annoying me now!