If you cannot love an eternal torment god

For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.

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Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present some of the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were using the Bible in its original language. This online book also explains why and how this changed.

Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, “I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it’s what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.” That’s why I want to say right at the outset that many of the links posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teach universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.

I’m 69 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering (including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78) than all the other sufferings of my life combined.

This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.

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If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD

If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.
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At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that are related to this same subject.
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Don’t kid yourself. If anyone suffers forever JESUS IS DOING IT TO THEM

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE

The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.

The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever.” John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)

And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”

To read a description of eternal torment combination Calv-Arminianism see
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
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This next url sums up the end result of all three
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Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist.
So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering. What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering!

Thank God the Bible does not teach such an insane idea!

Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary “kolasis aionian” (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved.

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You can Google up good articles on this subject by typing in kolasis aionian

Hi Rodger,

This is a difficult topic, I’m sorry it has caused you so much anguish.

Just one question to clarify - Calvinism, Arminanism etc aside, I am wondering how you reconcile universalism with the teachings of Christ himself (e.g. Matthew 25, Mark 9:42-45)?

Even just on the basis of these 2 passages It seems to me that Jesus is crystal clear that hell is a real place and that people will actually be condemned to suffer there, eternally, as direct result of their sin.  This isn’t to say it’s a doctrine I understand in its entirety or love to bits and pieces, however, for what it’s worth, I believe that God is deeply grieved to have to condemn anyone when he went to such great lengths to reconcile himself to us in Christ…

Grace and peace

Nicole

Hi Rodger,

Welcome to these forums.

You said:

For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.

While I appreciate this is a deeply felt topic for you, the above statement is simply not true.

The first counter-example that I came across today is the famous and highly-esteemed Irenaeus, who lived from about 120 to 200 AD and was Bishop of Lyons in southern France.

in Book Five of his Against Heresies he writes:

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V

Chapter XXVII.—The future judgment by Christ. Communion with and separation from the divine being. The eternal punishment of unbelievers.

1. If the Father, then, does not exercise judgment, [it follows] that judgment does not belong to Him, or that He consents to all those actions which take place; and if He does not judge, all persons will be equal, and accounted in the same condition. The advent of Christ will therefore be without an object, yea, absurd, inasmuch as [in that case] He exercises no judicial power.

For “He came to divide a man against his father, and the daughter against the mother, and the daughter-in-law against the mother-in-law;” and when two are in one bed, to take the one, and to leave the other;
and of two women grinding at the mill, to take one and leave the other:
[also] at the time of the end, to order the reapers to collect first the tares together, and bind them in bundles, and burn them with unquenchable fire, but to gather up the wheat into the barn; and to call the lambs into the kingdom prepared for them, but to send the goats into everlasting fire, which has been prepared by His Father for the devil and his angels.

And why is this? Has the Word come for the ruin and
for the resurrection of many? For the ruin, certainly, of those who do not believe Him, to whom also He has threatened a greater damnation in the judgment-day than that of Sodom and Gomorrah;
but for the resurrection of believers, and those who do the will of His Father in heaven.
………………

2. And to as many as continue in their love towards God, does He grant communion with Him. But communion with God is life and light, and the enjoyment of all the benefits which He has in store.

But on as many as, according to their own choice, depart from God, He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness; and separation from God consists in the loss of all the benefits
which He has in store.
Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them mmediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good.

Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending. It is in this matter just as occurs in the case of a flood of light: those who have blinded themselves, or have been blinded by others, are for ever deprived of the enjoyment of light.
It is not, [however], that the light has inflicted upon them the penalty of blindness, but it is that the blindness itself has brought calamity upon them: and therefore the Lord declared, “He that believeth in Me is not condemned,”that is, is not separated from God, for he is united to God through faith.

On the other hand, He says, “He that believeth not is
condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God;” that is, he separated himself from God of his own accord. “For this is the condemnation, that light is come into this world, and men have loved darkness rather than light.
For every one who doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that he has wrought them in God.
[My bold; mostly my paragraphing; apologies for the slightly antiquated translation from www.ccel.org]

You may notice that Irenaeus includes in this passage several references to statements of Jesus recorded in the Gospels.

Perhaps reading through the Gospels (Matthew for example) is a good place to start studying this area, rather than with any “modern” books.

Grace & peace,
Terry

For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.

No…

For example, Augustine (writing less than 400 years after Christ), wrote pretty extensively on the topic of hell.

Hi Craig,

Thanks for that link...Augustine was going to be my next stop when time allowed....

For those who may be unaware, Augustine is generally considered to be the most significant theologian in the “Western” church until Luther and Calvin. 

Grace & peace,
Terry

I don’t know which theologian came up with the argument first, so I can’t attribute appropriately, but I reckon the issue of everyone being declared holy on the last day and no one being eternally damned is completely answered by the fact Jesus had to come and die such a death for us - if we’re all going to be found holy anyway then why did God put him through such torment.  Surely God would have answered Jesus’ agonised prayer in the garden of gesthemene with “OK, no worries, I’ll find them all holy anyway so sure, I’ll take the cup away”.  While a doctrine of eternal torment is not pretty, I think it is both biblical and clearly taught by God in his word, written and incarnate.  .

Kathryn Roach - 08 July 2008 11:03 PM

I don’t know which theologian came up with the argument first, so I can’t attribute appropriately, but I reckon the issue of everyone being declared holy on the last day and no one being eternally damned is completely answered by the fact Jesus had to come and die such a death for us - if we’re all going to be found holy anyway then why did God put him through such torment.  Surely God would have answered Jesus’ agonised prayer in the garden of gesthemene with “OK, no worries, I’ll find them all holy anyway so sure, I’ll take the cup away”.  While a doctrine of eternal torment is not pretty, I think it is both biblical and clearly taught by God in his word, written and incarnate.  .

Hi Kathryn

Some universalists would argue that Jesus had to die to atone for human sins, so that he did actually die for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) and that it is because he has done so that God will ultimately be able to forgive all people.

Such an argument, of course, fails the test of interpreting scripture in accordance with scripture.  But they would not necessarily see Jesus’ death as, for example, purely a symbolic act, or something like that.

As for me and my household . . .

Bob

A quick Google search on “Rodger Tutt” reveals that 28,100 results. It appears that Rodger has been posting essentially the same message on as many forums as he can.

Personally I’d love to go for Universalism. I kinda lean that way, but as far as I can tell, there is no real justification for it in tradition nor in scripture.
It’s cerainly a thing that can test you.

Hi again,

It would be completely illogical for the many early Christian martyrs to willingly accept a very painful death if they were “universalists”.
Why bother?

Polycarp, the bishop of Smyrna (now in Turkey) was martyred in his old age in about 155 AD. In his youth he had contact with those who had known the apostles and he may have had direct contact with the apostle John.

In the Martyrdom of Polycarp which is generally considered to also date from the second century AD we read:

Chapter XI.—No threats have any effect on Polycarp.

The proconsul then said to him, “I have wild beasts at hand; to these will I cast thee, except thou repent.”

But he [Polycarp] answered, “Call them then, for we are not accustomed to repent of what is good in order to adopt that which is evil;[Note 449] and it is well for me to be changed from what is evil to what is righteous.”

But again the proconsul said to him, “I will cause thee to be consumed by fire, seeing thou despisest the wild beasts, if thou wilt not repent.”

But Polycarp said, “Thou threatenest me with fire which burneth for an hour, and after a little is extinguished, but art ignorant of the fire of the coming judgment and of eternal punishment, reserved for the ungodly. But why tarriest thou? Bring forth what thou wilt.”

[Note 449 says: Literally, “repentance from things better to things worse is a change impossible to us.”
Source: www.ccel.org The paragraphing and bold is mine.]

Grace & peace,
Terry

In my view universalism is completely unjust.

The tears of the persecuted church cry out for their righteous Heavenly Father to right the wrongs of the oppressors of this world.

Roger Gallagher - 09 July 2008 01:45 AM

A quick Google search on “Rodger Tutt” reveals that 28,100 results. It appears that Rodger has been posting essentially the same message on as many forums as he can.

Hm, and his website contains the following:

Since 1981, through my newspaper ads and my telephone ministry, I have sent out many hundreds of packets of literature explaining why I believe as I do. I have also sent this evidence to hundreds of pastors and Bible school teachers.

Oh well, no harm in discussing it, good to see so many SydAngs graciously and Scripturally disagreeing! :)

Nicole

To the poster who disputed the evidence without reading it.

Notice that an examination of the second half of the article shows that most of the church fathers during the first 500 years were in fact universalists.

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THE TRUTH ABOUT “HELL”

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People who want to keep believing in the doctrine of “endless hell” will not read the following four articles.

But people who don’t want to believe that the Bible teaches “endless hell” will read all four of them and will be filled with great joy at finding out the truth!

(If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into your address bar.)

What Jesus really taught about “hell.”
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What the Bible really teaches about “hell.”

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Regarding arguments against the Bible teaching universal salvation, see
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Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls “kolasis aionian,” which means age-during corrective chastisement.
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It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
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Regarding the most common argument that the same word for “punishment” is also used for “life” see the following:
All three of these articles should be studied with care, especially the third one.

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also see:

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To Dannii Willis regarding not wanting to let sin of the unrepentant sinner go unpunished.

It won’t

The Bible calls the punishment “kolasis aionian” which means ”age-during corrective chastisement”

It is limited in duration and corrective in purpose

You can Google up good articles by typing in kolasis aionian

Also read THE LAKE OF FIRE at

Just one question Rodger - why did you decide to call your website “tentmaker”?  That doesn’t really tell a surfer anything about its content, does it?

Hi Dan.
TENTMAKER is really the site of Gary Amirault.

I guide people to it because it has so much more info on it than my own does.
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However my site has many excellent links that people like to check out.

Both of our guestbooks have many testimonies from people who have been helped by the info on the TENTMAKER site and my links and testimony.

The many entries in my guestbook that is accessed towards the bottom of my front page at Link

and the many entries show just how much this information is helping people.

Also see