Gordon Cheng - 28 July 2008 09:19 AM

Suddenly the whole question of how important it is to be in fellowship with a bunch of strange and estranged liberals gets put into a bit of global perspective.

Sailing close to the wind I see Gordon. You seemed to think it was desperately important question a few months ago, glad it has declined in importance in your mind. Also, if you’re just going to post links sans discussion, wouldn’t your blog be a better place? The ‘Dead Horse’ definition in the posting policy includes people using the forums as pseudo-blogs, so maybe a good idea to keep the links on your blog and leave the forums for discussion.

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Anyway, I think there’s a risk of losing perspective if we get caught up in hubristic triumphalism over dissing the North American liberals, particularly about our new BFF’s, the Africans, of which I’ve read surprisingly little critical commentary.

It’s tempting to think that because they share our view on homosexuality, they are kindred evangelical spirits. From what I’ve heard though, there are serious problems about biblical literacy at some of the highest levels; they share our view on homosexuality more because of their cultural understanding than any particularly good biblical understanding; and they are ripe for heresy given their rigid power structures - if someone at the top gets led into heresy, they could easily take whole dioceses or provinces with them.

All of which points to some very keen Christians with some very serious needs vis a vis theological training, needs we should be very serious about addressing with some urgency, unless we want to find ourselves repeating the North American situation with them in 10-20 years time.

It would be good to see some in-depth commentary on these issues.

I’m posting in line with the OP on a thread which has been running for 4 months now. The thread is being well moderated by Joseph Smith and Jeremy Halcrow, and I am assuming that they will let me know if there is a problem (they haven’t).

But it’s good to see the various links provoking discussion.

All of which points to some very keen Christians with some very serious needs vis a vis theological training, needs we should be very serious about addressing with some urgency, unless we want to find ourselves repeating the North American situation with them in 10-20 years time… It would be good to see some in-depth commentary on these issues.

I’m mystified by your post Luke. Perhaps I’ve missed something.

I did post some indepth comment on African Christianity earlier today .. the link to ‘folk Christianity’.

Hi Jeremy, I take it you’re referring to your comment on the prev page:

Jeremy Halcrow - 28 July 2008 03:25 PM

This is not to say that there is a form of nominalism amongst seemingly devout West Africans which could be called folkChristianity.. but its not the same phenomena in my view as the ‘cultural’ Christian nominalism you find in the West.

..yeah I wasn’t so much referring to Christianity in Africa in general, but the anglican African leadership that has taken a prominent role through GAFCON etc, and examining the pros and cons of our relationship with them and where they are at, but I understand this may not be possible for AMS to cover for a variety of reasons.

Well the African leadership isn’t monolithic either - pretty diverse bunch.

Sure, that’s why I thought a look at who’s who would be interesting. At the moment they seem kind of amorphous, and I kind of get the impression African Anglican bishops are interchangeable with Sydney ones, but from what I hear from GAFCON that’s clearly not the case!

Here’s Al Mohler commenting on some of the commenting about Lambeth!

One of the most significant things to come out of the refusal to attend Lambeth and to go to GAFCON is that it has brought out support from friends in other denominations. The effect has been to build genuine Christian unity.

Luke, if you want to ask me a question about the Africans, I’d be happy to take a punt at answering it.

Why Should CESA be excluded from Lambeth...response to Jeremy

1) They have approved lay presidency and it is already in operation. If they were an actual priovince of the Communion that would be as contrioversial as the TEC/ ACC stance on homosexuality. This also shows their polity is not truly GAFCONIAN let alone Anglican.

2) They have one of the most liberal policies as regards divorce and re-marriage..read CESA Bishop Frank Retief’s book. It is in my opinion an adulterers charter.

3) They have dropped the word Catholic in the creed in their Alternative Prayer Book.

4) In the baptism service they have expunged any text hinting at baptismal regeneration.

5) they have tamoered with the 1662 ordinal.

David Ould credits the best commentary on Lambeth as coming from Colbert.

I don’t quite understand why an evangelical has been invited to offer comment on a ‘Comedy Central’ video, but I trust David Ould’s judgement implicitly.

That was fun. Thanks for the how-you-say heads up

A Lambeth aside .........GAFCON numbers of bishops

Church of Nigeria ...104
Church of Rwanda......9
Church of Kenya.......29
Southern Cone............7
Church of Uganda.....30
Australia ....................8
Church of England......4
TEC.............................3 ( inc of Bishop Schofield)
Misc...........................10* west africa, se Asia, North india etc
Total.........................204
( not inclusive of American bishops under African provinces)

*Were all the Tanzanian bishops there ?

Leaving 81 as not Anglican communion bishops. Of which 5 were CESA and 7 were Reformed Episcopal? free Church of England.

The REC has gone in a high church direction, and many evangelicals have left. In the Free Church of England several parishes are in dispute as well

Of the Anglican communion bishops 71 have ordained women as priests

Can any one correct or add to this synopsis ?

Where are your figures from Robert?

Gordon, I’ve calculated myself..but wonder why a public declaration has not released the list of those who put their name to it. I think the list will probabbly be released after Lambeth ..so people will not focus on the large number of non-Anglican communion names on the list.

I wonder if the TAC were there. They are currently negotiating a union with Rome?

You left out Sudan and Pakistan.