Hi. My brain is brain dead aand I am very tired. I’ve got this guy arguing online with me that Jesus’ temporal death cannot atone for everlasting punishment.

Can someone help me out here?

Adam

We discussed this issue a little while ago here.

Thanks Nathan.

I even posted on that thread!

God helped me and after 2 hours I got ditched - so I think that was good (in more ways the one) Apparently he is going to read more (I don’t think he means the Bible though).

So frustrating arguing against nutty exegesis!!!!! A good test to learn some grace i guess but right now I feel so cranky!

:) (a smile to keep me good)

Adam

Hi Adam,

I don’t have my copy of Pierced For Our Transgressions with me at present,
but I think that is one of the objections to subsitutionary atonement that they specifically address.

Undeserved generosity and peace,
Terry

Hi again,

From the Table of Contents on the PFOT website it sounds like Part 2 Section 10 is relevant where they deal with this objection:
4. ‘Penal substitution does not work, for the penalty Christ suffered was not equivalent to that due to us’

Terry

Hi Adam,
I think you will find pages 265-267 of Pierced For Our Transgressions
addresses this question well.

Excerpts from what PFOT says on p.266-267:
How could Christ’s suffering, which lasted only a few hours, pay an infinite price? How could an infinite punishment, infinite pain, be borne in a finite time?

The answer is that just as the heinousness of a sin is determined in part by the dignity of the person sinned against, so also the severity of a punishment is determined in part by the dignity of the one punished.
Christ is the one in whom ‘all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form’ (Col 2:9).
[...Then quotes Philippians2:6-8...]

As Turretin [a 16th century Reformation theologian] puts it, ‘Christ alone ought to be estimated at a higher value than all men together. The dignity of an infinite person swallows up...all the infinities of punishment due to us.’

Thus Christ’s suffering, though it lasted only a finite time, was infinite in value because he is infinitely worthy.

[Then discusses 1 Peter 1:18-19 and Hebrews 10:14]
The perpetuity of Christ’s priesthood and the eternal efficacy of his work are major themes in Hebrews (e.g. 7:23-28; 9:11-15).

In summary, it is true that the punishment Christ suffered at Calvary was not identical to that due to us. Yet there can be no question of its being insufficient.
[Paragraph breaks are mine] . 

A small sample from an excellent book.....
Grace & peace,
Terry

Terry, I agree that Christ’s person is of more value than ours but the argument above only seems a human construction not a Biblical one.

It would seem to me that it would be better to argue that Jesus took the judgment of wrath and death (same as that of sinner’s - time measurements being irrelevant) and the reason why his experience of wrath and death was not everlasting was because of the power of a sinless indestructible life.

I’m still open though to some additional help on this subject.

Even what you said seems to sound like a human construct, unless you can support it biblically?

That said I don’t think (but I could be wrong) there is nothing wrong with human constructs, theories of hypothesis, provided:
- You stick to the facts, the idea can neither add nor subtract from the person of Jesus or scripture in general, in this case the facts are: Christ took what would be to us an infinite punishment in a finite time.
- That you except that the biblical facts are true, but your idea (the human construct) about how they relate to each other could potentially be wrong.

I appreciate what you are saying Michael. I provided no Biblical support (laziness on my part). Maybe this verse ... (Acts 2:24) But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. A verse or too later ‘him’ is described as “God’s Holy One”.

Hence I thought to write:

Jesus took the judgment of wrath and death (same as that of sinner’s - time measurements being irrelevant) and the reason why his experience of wrath and death was not everlasting was because of the power of a sinless indestructible life.

Adam

I may be about to be heretical again, but here’s my understanding.
Jesus’ death paid for the finite but innumerable sins of the whole world. It makes it possible for our sin nature to be removed, but does not remove it from everyone. Those in hell still have their sin nature, and always will, and so deserve eternal infinite punishment.

Hi Dannii,
believe it or not I heard that argument from the pulpit at Gladesville. The passage in Revelation where sinners in hell “curse God” — the idea that they will not repent, but go on sinning against God even from Hell trying to spit in God’s face.... now that’s just a horrible, horrible thought and I can’t dwell on it too long.

I’ve probably forgotten my memory verses here, but how does that concept relate to the idea that God is going to put and end to sin? Or was it just judge sin and sinners once and for all, even if they go on sinning in their judgement? Or are the verses I’m thinking of speaking about something more specifically, such as sin against God’s people being wiped out? Sorry, can’t remember the verses that are contradicting with this sinning in hell concept… tired. Bed. No coffee. Speak tomorrow.