Last night while doing a bit of study “Here”in Genesis, I found that if the geneology accounts are true, that Abraham was 90 years old when Noah died. Noahs father Lamech was 56 when Adam died.

In Genesis 8:7 God tells Noah and his family to come out of the Ark, be fruitful and multiply, we know that God told Adam the same thing. Abrahams own father was 70 years old when he was born.

Could it be that a lot of Abrahams faith in believing that God would indeed grant him a son, and that he would be a father of nations, be based on his own knowledge of what God spoke to Adam and Noah, and his experience in seeing his elderly forebears doing likewise?

I agree completely, but from past experience I doubt you will find much support on these forums for this idea.

Assuming the genealogies are true then Adam lived at approximately 6000 years ago. Therefore either:

1) There are humans not descendant from Adam (eg Aboriginies who were in Australia before that) - but see Rom 5:12ff

or

2) Humans have only been around for 6000 years and the tools we use to date human remains older than that are incorrect.

I think most people around here just abandon the genealogies.

Hi Craig,

Craig Bennett - 01 February 2008 07:15 AM

Last night while doing a bit of study in Genesis, I found that if the geneology accounts are true, that Abraham was 90 years old when Noah died. Noahs father Lamech was 56 when Adam died.

In Genesis 8:7 God tells Noah and his family to come out of the Ark, be fruitful and multiply, we know that God told Adam the same thing. Abrahams own father was 70 years old when he was born.

Could it be that a lot of Abrahams faith in believing that God would indeed grant him a son, and that he would be a father of nations, be based on his own knowledge of what God spoke to Adam and Noah, and his experience in seeing his elderly forebears doing likewise?

I’ve got a problem with your comments above - men fathering children when they’re old is not out of the question. What is a problem is whether women can bear children at such an old age. And the answer is, without a miracle, no. Hence, Paul says in Rom 4:19 that Abraham knew Sarah’s womb was also dead.

So, Abraham had no reason to hope (Rom 4:18) - whether from “seeing” his forebears do likewise or otherwise - outside his trust in God’s promise and power (Rom 4:20-21).

As for the genealogies in Genesis and using them to determine the age of the earth, I’ll let someone else fight that battle…

J.

Hi Jason,

I agree with what you have said regarding older women having babies. However I’m not sure that you have read my comments properly.

What I was asking was if Abrahams knowledge of his forebears experience of God helped him in his own walk of faith in believing God?  I would say the answer has to be yes?

If Scripture says that all the OT was to help us in our faith, then that principle would also have to be working in Abrahams life through his knowledge of his forebears previous experience. Helping him in his own walk with God.

Nathan I’m not also not really interested in discussing young earth through the geneologies here, more so about the history of Abraham and his faith.

Hi. Thought I’d throw a few thoughts into the mix. I have just read a few chapters in Genesis and re-read Hebrews 11 to check up on some points.

Firstly I agree Abraham is a great ancestor. The bible says many times that Abraham was a faithful servant. Read Hebrews 11 and we see his name referred to many times in verses 8, 11 & 17.

However I am learning that having faith doesn’t necessarily discount the possibility that doubt came beforehand.

On reading Genesis 14, 15, 16, 17 I see evidence of doubt in both Abraham and Sarah.

First Abraham was given the news that “a son coming from you own body will be your heir.” Genesis 14:4b Following this news (the bible doesn’t indicate how long they waited) Sarai encouraged Abram to sleep with their maidservant so that a child could be born. This he did and Ishmael was born.

Later God came to Abram again and told him that Sarai would bear him a son. At that news they both had a moment of chuckling to themselves at the news that they would have a child in their old age. To me this shows me they doubted. But afterward they trusted God to do what He said He would do.

After this second vision God told them to change Abram’s name to Abraham and Sarai’s name to Sarah.

From this account I learn that it is okay to doubt. For even our greatest ancestors doubted. But I can follow up my doubt with faith, just as our ancestors did, and not be less of a faithful servant for it.  At least I hope this to be so.

Heather.
:)

GENESIS 14:4b
…but a son coming from your own body will be your heir.”

-----

GENESIS 17

15 God also said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”

17 Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, “Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!”

Hebrews 11
8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise.

17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice.

Craig Bennett - 01 February 2008 07:15 AM

Could it be that a lot of Abrahams faith in believing that God would indeed grant him a son, and that he would be a father of nations, be based on his own knowledge of what God spoke to Adam and Noah, and his experience in seeing his elderly forebears doing likewise?

To be more specific in responding to your question. Who can know the mind of anyone? As for people in the Bible we only have the scriptures to rely on.

Methinks your question will remain unanswered until we reach heaven.

Heather.
:-)

Craig Bennett - 01 February 2008 06:18 PM

Nathan I’m not also not really interested in discussing young earth through the geneologies here, more so about the history of Abraham and his faith.

Apologies Craig. I wasn’t trying to hijack the thread. I was more than anything warning of the inevitable direction this thread will go, and hoping to avoid it. As I said, I’m with you. I just doubt that others here will be.

oops sorry Nathan, I misunderstood your post.

Heather I would say that its a good thing to embrace our doubt, and to understand where and why we have doubts. I don’t think it is a good thing to remain doubtful though. There was a father who said something interesting to Jesus, “I believe, help me in my unbelief”

I think thats a great prayer we can also take on board for ourselves. What do you think helped Abraham over come his doubt?

Hi Craig.

I guess I was trying counter the opinion we sometimes take that the people in the Bible were greater than us, more noble than us, more faithful than us. That we as Christians today could never aspire to be as faithful.

So for this reason I introduced the idea that it is okay to doubt. And that verse you quoted is a great one ..... it showcases the contradiction that life can be sometimes. I believe....help my unbelief.

So I surmise that Abraham would have been the same. The bible shows him to be a man of faith. And he is one man who plays an important part in the lead up to Christ’s coming.

But I think Abraham lived a life of contradictions too. He was faithful to the extent that there was probably a little doubt thrown into the mix of his personality too.

Your turn..........

Heather.
:-)

Heather I totally agree with your last post.

Sometimes I think we read the Scriptures and take the humanity out of the situation. The blood, the sweat, tears, joy, past and present experiences.

There was a huge amount of doubt in Abraham at times, yet when it came to the crunch of the greatest sacrifice in his life, it was there he believed God.

Personally I believe that Abraham drew on the experience of Noah and his walk with God to help shape his own faith in God.

G’day,

Heather said:

But I think Abraham lived a life of contradictions too. He was faithful to the extent that there was probably a little doubt thrown into the mix of his personality too.

I don’t think that doubt and unbelief are the same thing. ISTM that at the heart of doubt is the desire to be more certain of what we believe. At the heart of unbelief is the desire not to believe at all.

Yours in Christ,
Mark

G’Day Mark,

In reply I can only say “I don’t believe you” and “I doubt that is true”.

Actually what I mean to say is that I can’t quite get my head around the difference between the two words.

Looking at the dictionary definitions you seem to be correct. But in practice to me they seem to mean the same thing.

I guess you have to be in a conversation with someone to find out which camp they are in. The camp of *doubt* or the camp of *unbelief*.

Heather.
:-)

Hi Craig,

Just catching up on your comments.

Craig Bennett - 01 February 2008 06:18 PM

Hi Jason,

I agree with what you have said regarding older women having babies. However I’m not sure that you have read my comments properly.

What I was asking was if Abrahams knowledge of his forebears experience of God helped him in his own walk of faith in believing God?  I would say the answer has to be yes?

I re-read your post, and I don’t think I misunderstood your comments. It doesn’t really matter whether Abraham knew about his old (male) forebears’ situation. Abraham’s age, or the age of his forebears is only a small part of the issue. Sarah’s age seems to be the major impediment to fulfilment of God’s promises. Hence, Abraham takes matters into his own hands in having a child to his maid.

Then there’s the question of whether the Bible actually leads us in the direction of Abraham actually knowing those older forebears in the first place. And it requires a certain reading of the genealogies to say that he did know them.

Hi Jason.

I would say forebears also included elderly women as well. There is no reason to say that the wives were any less younger than their husbands.

How would you read the geneologies in the OT? Is there any Scriptural support to say that Abraham or his father did not know Noah and his sons?

Craig,
Is there any to say that Abraham did?

J.

Hi Jason,

I would say that the weight of Scripture says that Abraham did know his forebears, or was surrounded by people who did know them.

We know that each generation passed down their history to the next and even if Abraham did not personaly know them, he certainly knew more about them then is written in the Scriptures.