Please note this is not another thread for retracing our doctrinal positions on homosexual activity (there are plenty of others if you have a burning need to say something).

http://www.matthiasmedia.com.au/briefing/webextra/sep03_clearmessage.htm

I was pleased to read Luke Tattersall pointing evangelicals back in the right direction in this ‘briefing extra’. He gives valuable reminders of the Christian mission: that we shouldn’t seek to stamp out sin in unbelievers but rather to lead them to Christ. He points out how we can distort the perception of the gospel in the community by fighting the wrong battles.

I’d be interested in other comments on this article, and would also like this thread to be an opportunity for self-examination of ourselves & our churches. A conservative understanding of the bibilical texts on homosexuality should not give credence to personal homophobia. Unfortunately homophobia can easily seem ‘baptised’ under the pretence of commitment to a ‘biblical’ position.

If a person in your church was struggling with homosexuality, how would you respond in a way that was helpful to them? What would go on in your heart? What would you do practically and pastorally? I would be especially interested in comments from people who have struggled with these issues themselves - what actions by people in the church made your struggle easier/harder? If it makes it easier, feel free to PM or email me (matt@allsaintspetersham.org.au) and I will gladly post your thoughts anonymously if they are constructive.

I hope this thread will mostly be constructive and pastorally oriented, rather than critical and doctrinally oriented (though there will be inevitable overlap).

Cheers
Matt

Thanks for sharing the article, Matthew.

I’ll have a good think and reply back soon in terms of your questions.  In relation to the article, I am exceedingly glad it has been published.  These sentences particularly hit me:

“First of all we have to realize that sexual immorality is placed in the same category as theft, envy, greed and slander.”
“If we are going to march and protest against homosexuality then I think we need to do the same thing with greed, envy, jealousy and slander.”

I do know that some people believe sexual sins to be somehow “worse” as the sexual union unites people in the flesh, but even if you do count them as worse, other sins are often “allowed” or condoned by Christians under the pretense that “all people do it” or “it doesn’t hurt anyone.” For example: the number of times I have heard people in previous churches [it may happen in my current one, probably does; but I haven’t heard it] laughingly discuss cheating the ATO, or Health Funds, or software companies...and yet are not these wrong also?  Yet homosexuality is brought up, and Christian, good Christian people I know personally, want homosexuals hanged, killed, etc… I am astounded...especially when the people they are talking about are not in “the Church”.  Why such a fear of homosexuality?!?!

Great questions your raised Matthew, also.  As I said above, I shall ponder them and reply soon.

Ian.

Thanks to Ian for your comments. I suspect the reason homosexuality is singled out is that there is more room to fuse an emotional reaction (which may be fear or revulsion) with a doctrinal position. Then the doctrinal position is argued with fervour derived not so much from commitment to the truth but from the emotional reaction confused with the truth. This produces such a zeal for the ‘truth’ that it pushes it into error.

I’ll be interested in your fuller thoughts later on.

One forum watcher has emailed me with his thoughts and related his struggles very honestly and helpfully. As I offered, I am posting his thoughts anonymously. I think they are worth reading through a few times to really put ourselves in his shoes. I know it contains a few generalisations about streams of thinking in the Christian church, I’d like to ask you not to rush to your own defence nor to attack others, but to keep your comments in a more self-critical and objective vein (in the spirit of this thread).

Homophobia?  The word is not really a helpful one:  gay people tend to use it to describe anyone whose views about a homosexual lifestyle are not identical to their views on a heterosexual lifestyle (i.e. virtually eveyone).  Conservatives tend to focus on “phobia” as a “fear” or “hatred” and deny (rightly) that they think that way at all.

I suppose what you mean is that combination of disgust, contempt, ridicule about homosexuality which ordinary folks tend to have.

I don’t know that this is very common in church.  Christians are nice people.  I have never thought otherwise that I would not get acceptance and love by my church if I told them that I ‘struggled with same-sex attraction’ (the euphemism of the moment - at times I haven’t put up any fight at all).

I think the biggest problem is simply silence.

Silence about the issue.  My guess is that there are a lot of Christians who struggle with unwanted same-sex attraction; as you would expect given the type of disfunctional people Jesus befriended, they are probably much more numerous in the church, than in society as a whole.

Silence on the part of people like me.  Before you can help someone struggling with homosexuality, you gotta know that they are.  I can only speak for myself in saying that it is a very hard thing to admit.  You might have absolutely no inkling whatsoever that your best friend is struggling (or secretly has maybe given in already).

I suspect there are a lot of people like me out there who just feel very alone, wondering how it is possible to be a Christian and yet have these unwanted feelings, praying for a healing that never seems to come.

Liberals offer unquestioning acceptance, but no actual help.  One reason I’ve been reluctant to tell anybody about my struggle is that the dominant view in my denomination, based more I think on well-meaning ignorance, is that God made you this way - so get used to it.

I am told that charismatics believe that same-sex attraction can be instantly healed by God.  Since I’ve come to understand that same-sex attraction is a symptom for more deep-rooted psychological problems that date back to my childhood, I can’t imagine God would just cure the symptoms - He wants to make my whole person new, and maybe that will take a long time and a lot of effort, and no guarantee of success.

What has made a big difference in my life has been encountering by chance a fellow Christian who has the same problem and shares the wish to overcome it.  Just having someone to talk to, and be honest to about our spiritual life, and your struggle with sin, means a lot.

I think the parallel with alcoholism is the best.  Gay sex is like an addictive drug - it is amazingly easy to get, and it makes you feel good about yourself instantaneously.  There are some pretty serious health implications; and if you are addicted, then you can’t just drink in moderation.

Group support is essential.  And I think that means the support of people who are also struggling.  Counselling and self-help groups exist, but they do not seem to be widely known about, or well-resourced.  I think that the Church needs to publicise them a whole lot more than it does.  Every parish minister ought to be trained in how to counsel in this area.

The mixed messages I get from my denomination are really difficult to deal with.  I don’t find any of the ‘gay Christian’ arguments I’ve read intellectually satisfying or personally engaging.  When in good spirits, I know that God wants a lot better things for me, than I can possibly get by being gay.  But in low spirits, it is tempting to be told you can’t change it, and you shouldn’t try.

It doesn’t get much more profound than a person’s own experience. I’m sure we’re all grateful to this person for opening our eyes into their world a little.

A few thoughts I had in response to this email:

1. Our brother raised the question of what ‘homophobia’ is. What I mean by homophobia is a sustained negative emotional reaction to a person on the basis of their homosexual orientation. I say sustained because we all may have to work on our instant reactions to be conformed to Christ. But if we happily maintain it, there is a serious problem.

To be honest, I think this is still disappointingly common in the church here in Sydney. I hear people speculate that clergy who are married with children are actually gay, as though this is somehow a minus on that man’s credibility. To my mind, it is not only ridiculous speculation to begin with, but if they were gay and managed to live in such a godly way in spite of those struggles they deserve extra credit, not less.

2. I think he hit the nail on the head when he spoke of ‘silence’. If persons struggling with same-sex attraction are at their most emotionally vulnerable in discussing that, who will have the fortitude to pioneer a culture of admitting it and exposing those Christians whose attitudes towards them are then seen to be less than Christ-like? Even people who seem strong and confident don’t want to expose their ‘Achilles heel’, if I may put it that way. Especially when so much of the reaction seems to happen at an emotional/irrational level. So what can we do to create a culture that makes it easier for them to admit this in the first place? I’m not sure, but a good place to start would be an examination of our own hearts.

3. My fear is that the choice, as our brother highlights, is too often between churches which offer acceptance by endorsing sin, and churches that will view homosexuals as an object of pity at best, or revulsion at worst, but do discourage complacency about sin. Where is the transforming love of Christ, overflowing through us all to embrace everyone, so they know they are loved, exhorted to godliness, but not judged and written off, or even kept at a distance, because of their struggles? Of course it is there in our churches, I guess it’s just the exceptions that would be noticed more.

But surely to alienate a person struggling with these issues is in fact to drive them to seek loving acceptance elsewhere - such as the homosexual lifestyle they are trying to leave behind.

I hope that this thread will see as much passion emerging for confronting the sin of homophobia as was demonstrated in several other threads for confronting the sin of homosexual activity. It’s so much easier to judge others, isn’t it? But can we take the jimmy to the log in our own eye?

Thanks to “the forum watcher” for sending their very honest and intensive struggles—I applaud and I pray for you; and thanks to Matthew for offering the means for him / her to do it.

[quote author="Matthew Williams"]I suspect the reason homosexuality is singled out is that there is more room to fuse an emotional reaction (which may be fear or revulsion) with a doctrinal position. Then the doctrinal position is argued with fervour derived not so much from commitment to the truth but from the emotional reaction confused with the truth.

Very true point.

I suppose what you mean is that combination of disgust, contempt, ridicule about homosexuality which ordinary folks tend to have.

I don’t know that this is very common in church.  Christians are nice people.  I have never thought otherwise that I would not get acceptance and love by my church if I told them that I ‘struggled with same-sex attraction’ (the euphemism of the moment - at times I haven’t put up any fight at all).

I am happy you are in such a loving and caring environment.  Many people I know are not in that environment at all.

I think the biggest problem is simply silence.

Silence about the issue.  My guess is that there are a lot of Christians who struggle with unwanted same-sex attraction; as you would expect given the type of disfunctional people Jesus befriended, they are probably much more numerous in the church, than in society as a whole.

Being honest and open here, I will say that I occasionally struggle with “same sex attraction” [not as much as I did during those wild, hormone-raging testoterone years, I’ll admit], and I also struggle with “opposite sex attraction”.  Yet, in my previous church [I haven’t—as yet—got as far in my current church in terms of relationships as those I have with friends in my previous church], a few people openly talked about lusting after woman—and these same people often tiraded against homosexuality - not conducive to bringing up the point as you wrote. 

I remember a speaker at the Katoomba Men’s Convention saying he struggled with same-sex lusts and attractions: this truly opened my eyes up that I may not be the only one.  Yet, as you wrote, “silence” is the big issue: I cannot even imagine bringing it up with certain people I know have reacted in a violent way to homosexuality, even if they are close friends.  It has taken a lot from me to actually write this and I think I may collapse after pressing “Submit”!!! ;-) But, I’d like to share my experiences and at least offer some comfort / support to the sender of the e-mail (and others out there in cyberland going through similar things) that they are not alone.

I suspect there are a lot of people like me out there who just feel very alone, wondering how it is possible to be a Christian and yet have these unwanted feelings, praying for a healing that never seems to come.

And I agree: the praying for healing that never comes is tough.  Thanks be to God He has given me strength to resist: yet, if I fall—and I pray I do not—I know He will forgive me.  Although He may not take away the lust [for males, or females for that matter either!], his grace and power in keeping me restrained is something I am thankful for.

Liberals offer unquestioning acceptance, but no actual help.
<cut>

I am told that charismatics believe that same-sex attraction can be instantly healed by God.

Where to go?  A difficult question.

I’m not sure such feelings can be instantly healed by God.  As I wrote above, He has given me grace thus far to resist going further.  I also have lustful thoughts towards women; a desire to lie; a desire to be selfish: these are all part of our sinful nature and I do not think that these can be cured instantly: why should same-sex attraction be any different???  I believe we need to catch and identify feelings we believe to be wrong and stop as soon as we can.  God may, through His grace, take them away one day—but perhaps we are to be tried and tested throughout our life.

What has made a big difference in my life has been encountering by chance a fellow Christian who has the same problem and shares the wish to overcome it.  Just having someone to talk to, and be honest to about our spiritual life, and your struggle with sin, means a lot.

Group support is essential.  And I think that means the support of people who are also struggling.  Counselling and self-help groups exist, but they do not seem to be widely known about, or well-resourced.  I think that the Church needs to publicise them a whole lot more than it does.  Every parish minister ought to be trained in how to counsel in this area.

I am thankful to God you have found such a person: a person who can support and encourage and know (or perhaps glimpse; you may be coming from different backgrounds) what it is like would be a big help.

Agree 100% with the group support.  In terms of ministers being trained, I think if we insisted they be trained in this area, a thousand thousand new “struggles” may be on the agenda for teaching and a B Th. will extend to 20 years! ;-) Seriously, the parish priests I have gone to for support in difficult times have been a source of immense comfort, no matter what the problem (I have not raised this one).  I believe they must do some form of counselling subject at college- and that may equip them to deal with a variety of situations, including struggles with sex / sexual orientation.

Perhaps when a priest is aware of someone in their congregation with such struggles, they may be able to help be referring them, or they may even research a bit themselves to help.  I am very thankful for the wonderful caring priests God has blessed with me.

Thanks again for sharing.  God bless,
Ian.

Can’t sleep so I’ll keep on typing.  Luckily I’m unemployed at the moment and can sleep in… ;-)

[quote author="Matthew Williams"]A few thoughts I had in response to this email:

1. Our brother raised the question of what ‘homophobia’ is. What I mean by homophobia is a sustained negative emotional reaction to a person on the basis of their homosexual orientation. I say sustained because we all may have to work on our instant reactions to be conformed to Christ. But if we happily maintain it, there is a serious problem.

To be honest, I think this is still disappointingly common in the church here in Sydney. I hear people speculate that clergy who are married with children are actually gay, as though this is somehow a minus on that man’s credibility. To my mind, it is not only ridiculous speculation to begin with, but if they were gay and managed to live in such a godly way in spite of those struggles they deserve extra credit, not less.

I’m shocked by the second paragraph, in terms of people’s speculations against clergy!  As I have written before, several people at my old church spread rumours I was gay: although in my previous post I admitted to such feelings, it does not take away the hurt and in fact makes it all the more difficult as it seemed impossible to talk to anyone about the feelings!!! 

I think your position on working on our instant reactions hits the nail on the head: not just for this issue, but many others also [a scruffy person who walks in, for example].

[quote author="Matthew Williams"]
2. I think he hit the nail on the head when he spoke of ‘silence’. If persons struggling with same-sex attraction are at their most emotionally vulnerable in discussing that, who will have the fortitude to pioneer a culture of admitting it and exposing those Christians whose attitudes towards them are then seen to be less than Christ-like? Even people who seem strong and confident don’t want to expose their ‘Achilles heel’, if I may put it that way. Especially when so much of the reaction seems to happen at an emotional/irrational level. So what can we do to create a culture that makes it easier for them to admit this in the first place? I’m not sure, but a good place to start would be an examination of our own hearts.

May I ask what you mean by the last sentence?

As the “lurker” wrote, there are some organisations—but I get the feeling these are some sort of “secret societies” that aren’t discussed in polite society as it were.  Hopefully this article may get such issues into the light: but I have a feeling it may be covered up.

Sex outside marriage seems to be the sin of the day in many churches, and many people I know hate hearing sermons on sex between marriage partners: how on earth would they react to hearing sermons on struggles with homosexuality?  Perhaps it could be introduced by struggles that are not viewed with as much disdain; or perhaps it needs to be brought out in the open straight away.

[quote author="Matthew Williams"]
3. My fear is that the choice, as our brother highlights, is too often between churches which offer acceptance by endorsing sin, and churches that will view homosexuals as an object of pity at best, or revulsion at worst, but do discourage complacency about sin. Where is the transforming love of Christ, overflowing through us all to embrace everyone, so they know they are loved, exhorted to godliness, but not judged and written off, or even kept at a distance, because of their struggles? Of course it is there in our churches, I guess it’s just the exceptions that would be noticed more.

But surely to alienate a person struggling with these issues is in fact to drive them to seek loving acceptance elsewhere - such as the homosexual lifestyle they are trying to leave behind.

Speaking for a friend who is actively homosexual, I think this is true.  He upped and left for a church that did accept him and his lifestyle, despite once trying to leave it behind.

I believe there needs to be more emphasis on the “transforming love of Christ, overflowing through us all to embrace everyone”.  So often I have heard sermons about the evils of pre-marital sex and how it is WRONG!  WRONG!  WRONG!  No mention was made of forgiveness if we fall: and I know several people in the congregation had or were having pre-marital sex.  I am sure they walked about feeling utterly miserable, as if they were failures and unloved and rejected by God.  And I am sure they did not stop the sex.

I am not saying water down the rules; but there needs to be acknowledgement that we do stumble, that we do fail, that we do fall short.  And when we do, God loves us still through Christ.  That brings tears to my eyes…

In addition, there are many homosexuals (and heterosexuals) who believe a managimous homosexual relationship is as good as an heterosexual one.  Bearing in mind Matthew’s statement at the beginning of his first post about not re-tracing debates on our doctrinal views of homosexuality: what do we offer these people?  Thumping Bibles at them may drive them away; do “liberal” churches offer something for them?

So many questions...so few answers.  At least from me. ;-) Thanks Matthew for the topic and your very thoughtful and considered posts.

Thanks for listening,
Ian.

Matthew, thanks for setting us off on this thread & for making it about how to deal with real people. And thanks also to Anon & Ian for your contributions. I don’t know what to say except thanks for your honesty & trust. You have shown trust in we who read your posts. More importantly trust in God that he is strong & gracious even if we are weak.

Matthew, like Ian I was a bit surprised at what you said:

I hear people speculate that clergy who are married with children are actually gay, as though this is somehow a minus on that man’s credibility. To my mind, it is not only ridiculous speculation to begin with, but if they were gay and managed to live in such a godly way in spite of those struggles they deserve extra credit, not less.

Often? Regularly? How many people? (Don’t answer these - they’re just to express my reaction.)

I have a feeling that this has led to an over-strong polarity, as in the following:

3. My fear is that the choice, as our brother highlights, is too often between churches which offer acceptance by endorsing sin, and churches that will view homosexuals as an object of pity at best, or revulsion at worst, but do discourage complacency about sin.

Have I read this right? It sounds like you consider that there are two basic responses, at totally opposite ends of the spectrum.

FWIW, I don’t really thing that’s so. I reckon there are a minority of Christians/churches who are for full acceptance. And a minority with emotional revulsion.

I think that your second point, picking up Anon, is more accurate:

2. I think he hit the nail on the head when he spoke of ‘silence’.

Homosexuality is not the centre of the Christian life. Of course we’ll talk about it when issues (such as gene Robinson’s election) arise. It would be unhelpful not to. If it’s in the news folk will come to church & wonder, ‘How do I respond to this? What is God’s mind on the matter?’

I make this point, Matthew, not to have a go at you. (I hope I have not done that!) I make it because it is closely related to your big concern: what do we do pastorally?

To put it differently, how do we care for people’s specific situations when those situations are not likely to be widespread? (I’m thinking of up-front comments, preaching, etc. Not personal counsel.) The question applies for homosexuality, poker-machine addiction, whatever.

To go to town on an issue might make it harder for people to ask for help. It can also skew how people perceive the gospel. To not mention can be dangerous for it confirms people in whatever understanding they already have.

I am ever grateful that the preaching method I learnt is expository. The basic diet is get a book, & go through passage by passage. This is pastoral, I believe. It means I am not forever chasing down the latest controversy & hammering it. But, becasue God’s word is ever applied, our menu will address current issues.

To give one example. Recently I have been teaching through John 13-17. At one point I thought it fitting to comment on the ECUSA bishop deliberations, because I thought it interacted with Jesus’ words that “If you love me you will keep my commands.”

Anyway, this is a ramble. So probably needs clarification, or whatever. I repeat, however, thanks Matthew: the pastoral mindset of this thread has already been very helpful to me.

Hi all :)

[quote author="Matt"]If a person in your church was struggling with homosexuality, how would you respond in a way that was helpful to them? What would go on in your heart? What would you do practically and pastorally?

I think the majority of people in my church (well… at least my congregation- myself included) were ignorant and completely naieve about the struggles of individuals with same-sex attraction until one of our brothers in Christ was interviewed at church a number of years ago and very publicly made it known that it was a very big struggle in his own life. I, for one, was taken completely by suprise because I had never stopped to think that any of my friends might be dealing with this- and it was a firm rebuke for me… one that I have never forgotten.

He, and one or two other friends of mine who also struggle with SSA (I can’t be bothered typing it out all the time!) have been a great blessing to our church because we have seen the way they have earnestly struggled to love God and live a life pleasing to Him and it has urged us all to examine our own lives and ensure we are seeking to do the same thing.

Because we have had two members of our congregation make it publicly known that they struggle with SSA it has meant that our pastor, and most of us as individuals, have sought to be better informed so as to be able to care, love and encourage our friends all the more. There has been a couple of elements to this I believe-

1) Each of us individually has examined our own hearts and minds in an effort to work out how best to love our brothers and sisters dealing with unwanted SSA. It has meant (hopefully!) that we have had to face up to, what is at times, subconscious bigotry in our own lives.

2) Our pastor is very sensitive to the issue, and thus encourages us all to be likewise. I think he has a number of close friends dealing with unwanted SSA (or in fact who are active homosexuals) and has also, during his time in full-time ministry, pastored (what I thought was) a suprising number of people struggling with it.

3) In January this year (when half of our congregation is away on holidays!) we watched a video series in church by a man named Sy Rogers (I think it was called Living & Loving at Risk). The video series is about the sexual issues which people deal with (in particular homosexuality), why they deal with them, what the Bible has to say and how we as Christians should respond. Sy Rogers is very forthright (particularly about his own past homosexual lifestyle), and whilst the videos are not perfect in every regard we found them very helpful in thinking through how to pastor people struggling with ranges of sexual issues. It was helpful in putting them out on the table and forcing us to not pretend they didn’t exist or that people were not struggling enormously with them.

4) The couple of people in our church who have been struggling with unwanted SSA have been involved in Liberty Christian Ministries and as such we have had Liberty come to church and speak and have also plugged a lot of their seminars and other events at church. They are a non-denominational, evangelical ministry set up to help Christian men and women struggling with unwanted same-sex feelings and to educate the Christian community about how to care for them. God is doing marvellous things through Liberty. They worked with Matthias Media on the book “What Some of You Were”.

Can I really strongly encourage anyone who is struggling with unwanted SSA to consider contacting Liberty. They also visit churches and other events to give testimonies and to educate Christians about the issue. Their contact details are:

Liberty Christian Ministries Inc.
PO Box 67, Summer Hill, NSW 2130.
Telephone: 02-9798-4685

I believe they are very strict about confidentiality and privacy.

OK. I better sign off here. FWIW, they are my pre-lim thoughts :)

Some good questions raised here Matt, and some good answers by Dani and Ian with more questions raised.

I think the society we live in is a homophobic society. By that I mean men in particular are frightened to show emotions to one another, fathers are frightened to show emotions to their children and allow their children, especially sons to show their emotions. Yong boys grow up with their emotions stifled and then when they feel emotion towards another man they classify it as being a homosexual tendency. (feelings other than overt sexual)

Recently on the way to work, I had my 16 year old son in the car and passed a friend of mine in his driveway, who is a pastor of a different church to where I worship. I stopped and went up and spoke to him, he told me how his dad had died recently and had some family problems. We prayed together, hugging each other and he kissed me on the top of my head.

My son, (step son) who stayed in the car, when we got home from work said to my wife, (his mum) “Mum I would be careful of craig, he was hugging a man who kissed him”

I too used to suffer SSA as a young man and I used to fight them, now after much inner healing from the Lord I have come to recognise that I was not sexually attracted to men, in fact the thought repulsed me even when I wen tthrough this, I was after a fatherly figure to show emotion to me and I to them.

It was only after I was 26, 2 weeks before my father died that he told me that he regreted never putting his arm around my shoulder and telling him how much he loves me”. I have since birth and still to this day tell my 2 natural sons regulary that daddy loves them and likes them, I was sharin gthis at a prayer summitt recently and the thought occured to me that I had never told my wife I liked her, so i rang her and told her “honey, you know I love you (I tell her that every day) I need to tell you that I also like you heaps as well” There was complete silience coming from the other end, she had never in her 37 years been ever told by any one, yet alone a loved one that she was liked.

Taking my own experiences in mind and that of others Ian, I would be interested in knowing what your relationship with your dad was like when you grew up?

Today when ever a boy expresses SSA feelings, they are told it is OK to be homosexual it’s what they are, I think society is homophobic in this way instead of facing up to our emotional responsibilites to one another.

Taking those feelings and emotions and distorting them with sexual activity is anothe rmatter though.

I wonder in our conservative evangelical churches, where we are frightened of emotionalism towards God, it is an area we need to face pastorally within our congregations?

Some thoughts craig

Hi Craig,

Thanks for sharing (as always so openly!)

You raise some really important issues.

[quote author="Craig"]I too used to suffer SSA as a young man and I used to fight them, now after much inner healing from the Lord I have come to recognise that I was not sexually attracted to men, in fact the thought repulsed me even when I wen tthrough this, I was after a fatherly figure to show emotion to me and I to them.

I have heard stats quoted that some huge majority of men feel some sort of SSA at some point in their lives (something like 80%???). I always found it hard to believe but the more I talk with people the more I see that it is true.  How can we help our young (and older!) brothers in this respect?

Secondly, one of the things of which I am utterly convinced is, as you said, that a lot of SSA is a result of the lack of a strong father/male figure (at least for young boys and men). The gay lobby refuses to admit it but the evidence is absolutely overwhelming. Sy Rogers was very helpful in explaining these types of ‘emotional dependency’ which later leads to unwanted SSA amongst both men and women. So I guess one important question is how, as God’s church, can we encourage parents (and particularly fathers) to provide for the emotional needs of their children?

Thanks to all the contributors above for your uniformly constructive wisdom. Thanks especially to Ian for his courage. In another email received from Anon, he wrote:

I am in awe of Ian - his openness may encourage someone to tell someone else, and seek help.

There is so much wisdom in the above posts I almost want to just go through quoting large segments and then saying “Spot on!” but I suppose that isn’t very efficient use of time for anyone.

Since it has been raised as a matter of surprise by both Ian & Chris, I should say that my comments relating to speculations about clergy are not everyday occurrences, but they have come from several different people about several different clergy. Often those would be people I considered relatively mature Christians. But I don’t want to focus this thread on tut tutting about how much worse others are than us (since that only encourages complacency on our part), so maybe it was a mistake on my part to bring it up.

Ian wrote:

I think your position on working on our instant reactions hits the nail on the head: not just for this issue, but many others also [a scruffy person who walks in, for example].

Yes – I think we can remain unaware of prejudices within us. For example, I used to be a member of a wonderful North Shore parish full of wonderful, mostly likeable and socially capable people. I knew Jesus was especially concerned with the marginalised, but I really didn’t see them very much. When I moved to Petersham, I found a full spectrum of people – some just like back on the North Shore, right through to the destitute, homeless, and the mentally ill. And all the theory in the world didn’t mitigate my instant reactions to those people. I had to make a conscious effort to love them, to talk with them, to show an interest in them. But after a while, as they became people to me rather than categories, my love for them and interest in them became genuine. My fear is that because struggles with sexual orientation remain private we haven’t been confronted with our own prejudices, and so they simmer under the surface of otherwise godly people, who (as Ian relates examples) say fairly insensitive things that inadvertently discourage openness from those enduring the struggle.

Along these lines, Anon has further written:

Secrecy and shame about sin is the devil’s weapon.  Anything we Christians do or say to each other to enhance or provoke shame is of the devil, for a sin hidden from our brethren, is a sin not being prayed about, and a brother not being cared for.  It has been preying on my mind a lot, that I should ask to be completely indifference to what others think of me, so that I can be more open about my struggles if the occasion is called for.

Ian wrote:

Matthew Williams wrote:

So what can we do to create a culture that makes it easier for them to admit this in the first place? I’m not sure, but a good place to start would be an examination of our own hearts.

May I ask what you mean by the last sentence?

I simply mean each Christian, as in every other area, needs to strongly examine our own attitudes to conform them to the attitude of Christ. If that heart change is in place, we are less likely to say insensitive things that discourage openness and make people in your situation feel fearful of revealing their struggle. As you said:

Yet, in my previous church [I haven’t—as yet—got as far in my current church in terms of relationships as those I have with friends in my previous church], a few people openly talked about lusting after woman—and these same people often tiraded against homosexuality - not conducive to bringing up the point as you wrote.

That is the kind of thing that wouldn’t happen, if those people had examined their hearts and sought to conform their attitudes to that of Christ in the first place.

This leads in nicely to one of Chris’ points:

Homosexuality is not the centre of the Christian life. Of course we’ll talk about it when issues (such as gene Robinson’s election) arise. It would be unhelpful not to. If it’s in the news folk will come to church & wonder, ‘How do I respond to this? What is God’s mind on the matter?’

I agree with this, but I am concerned that the wrong message is sent if we only talk about it when issues like gay ordination come up. At those times we are hammering the doctrinal issues, and if there is a token reference to pastoral understanding, it is always as a qualification rather than as the point people are really hearing (which is usually along the lines of ‘we shouldn’t ordain practicing homosexuals’).

But I suspect those talks, so often peppered by outrage at the actions of liberals, are little to no help for those struggling amongst us. They merely heighten the sense of marginalisation and suspicion they think they would receive if they admitted to their struggles, and so exacerbate their already strong tendency towards silence. Meanwhile we think we have addressed homosexuality from the pulpit ‘so that’s covered’, and so fail in the pastoral task for those among us struggling (and there are bound to be many more than we think or will ever be aware of).

Craig in relating his enormously helpful experiences raises an interesting angle in terms of the general aversion to healthy same-sex affection in Australian society at large, especially among blokes. I wonder if that phenomenon actually increases the problem for those struggling with SSA – if the lack of healthy, non-sexual affection creates a desire misconstrued as sexual attraction. I’m not a psychologist so would be reluctant to draw conclusions with any certainty, but the question is worth asking. Do churches need to some degree be counter-cultural in this respect? OTOH, turning all huggy and affectionate wouldn’t really solve the problem, because some people are very uncomfortable with this (since we are a product of this culture). Hmmm…thoughts?

Dani has given a fascinating outline of the process of coming to terms with this in her parish – a terrific model. Thanks for your usual wisdom Dani – I learned a lot.

Meanwhile, we are now blessed with the thoughts of another anonymous brother – let’s call him Anon2 – who writes (among other things I have edited to protect his identity):

I don’t really know if I’m gay or not, I do feel strong sexual attraction towards some men stronger than I feel towards women. But I was sexually abused when I was 13. Because I have been a christian since I was a child I have never had sex with a woman since I was always taught it was wrong. So my only sexual experience is with a man, it wasn’t sex but oral sex, mutual mastabation and so on. I feel like I crave gay sex and am repulsed by it all at once. I am not repulsed by hetero sex but I don’t crave it much. I have not had gay sex except for the abuse when I was younger, again because I believe it is wrong, I was just very confused at the time.

I really want to get married and have 2.3 kids in a commodore and all that but worry that if I do I will find I’m not sexually attracted to my wife because I am gay, I can’t find out if I’m going to change to be sexually attracted to women when I have hetero sex because I’m a christian and that would be wrong. But to get married seems a big risk, I could really stuff someone else up and even bring kids into that mess before I work it all out. I don’t know what to do. I’ve even thought about hiring a prostitute to see what happens to my feelings about women once I had sex with one, but again I know it’s wrong, so I haven’t done it.

I must admit, Anon2 (as I said privately), I am completely gobsmacked. I can assure you of my prayers but fear this sounds like a platitude. This is a very difficult predicament. I can see that you long to be godly in your conduct and yet don’t want to set your life up to hurt someone. I can only thank you profusely for sharing your struggle with us – what an insight into your world you have given us - and turn it over to others for better wisdom than mine.

Wow. I started this thread in the hope of developing theory for pastoral wisdom – it is doing that and so much more - I must admit it has caused me to shed a few tears as I realise the depth of what some of our brothers are going through. Thankyou to all of you who have spoken so frankly of your struggles – the risks you have taken are blessings upon us. Please – keep it coming – I’m sure there is a lot more we need to understand.

Your brother because of Jesus

Matt

Dani T wrote:

I have heard stats quoted that some huge majority of men feel some sort of SSA at some point in their lives (something like 80%???). I always found it hard to believe but the more I talk with people the more I see that it is true. How can we help our young (and older!) brothers in this respect?

I have been reflecting more on what Dani said here. If these figures are even a multiple of the truth there is a substantial imperative here.

There is another angle to this issue people might like to contribute wisdom to. Given that most people struggling with this will do so in silence, the existence of personal counselling, as valuable as it may be for those who take advantage of it, is not the answer for most of our brothers (& sisters) in this situation.

So I’d like to put out a supplementary question: what kind of things, if said from the pulpit, would help encourage people in their struggles even if they wish to remain silent about it?

[quote author="Matt"]Given that most people struggling with this will do so in silence, the existence of personal counselling, as valuable as it may be for those who take advantage of it, is not the answer for most of our brothers (& sisters) in this situation.

So I’d like to put out a supplementary question: what kind of things, if said from the pulpit, would help encourage people in their struggles even if they wish to remain silent about it?

I’m running off to bed but thought I would just quickly respond.

I completely concur that Matt’s question is totally legitmate and a very helpful question to ask (and no doubt there will be constructive responses to it forthwith!).

But I think part of what should be said from the pulpit (or the public face of ministry) is to strongly encourage individuals who are dealing with unwanted SSA to break their silence and to seek pastoral care and one-on-one counselling. I don’t mean that they need do what my friend did and get up in front of church and make a public announcement. But I think we need to urge them to speak to their pastor, or a trusted and mature Christian friend, or a Christian counsellor who is equipped to help them.

I think such a big part of what people are dealing with (as expressed by the Anon posters on this thread) is that there are deep emotional and pyschological issues at the heart of it (often including sexual & emotional abuse). Of course, this is often what makes people want to keep their silence. Whilst God certainly changes people by His Spirit in a huge number of situations and circumstances, I think we need to keep encouraging people to be cared for pastorally as individuals when dealing with struggles like unwanted SSA (although certainly not limited to that!).

Night y’all!

How can the church do something about this from the pulpit?

If there is around about 80% of men in our nation who have suffered some form of SSA, then that would be a substantial number of clergy who have suffered from it.

Therefore if we are to encourage men to talk to oneanother, prayer for one another, to speak about it, it has to be led from the front. If a clergy man is blessed enough to have never suffered from it, then he allows someone who has to give his testimony.

The other thing we need to do is to teach our boys how to be men, what is it to be a man today, society says “18 years, I can go to the pub, I’m a man now”

When I was in my early 20’s I still thought people were talking about my dad when they called me mister ......

I am 36 years old, male and still struggling with the issues of what is it to be a man in todays society, to be a man in the church etc.

There is no easy answer to this, but to seek the answers and to put them into practice is nessecery.

craig

What exactly do we mean by the 80% figure that is being used here?  I have heard far more often that 10% of people have sustained same sex attraction.  This seems far more likely figure to me.  Is the 80% people who in the past have had SSA at some point?  or is it that 80% of the population has an ongoing attraction for members of the same sex?

Thanks Rowan,

I’ll try and track down the stats later today. But from memory it was not saying that the vast majority of men sustain a SSA in an ongoing sense, but rather at some point in their lives they experience some sort of SSA.

Don’t quote me on the 80% though. As I said I’ll try and track down the stats

The definition for the stats Dani gave originally was pretty broad. It may include those raging adolescent hormones that would be temporarily sexually attracted to a barbed wire fence if that was all that was available.

I don’t think the exact figures need detain us (I’m not sure how they even come up with them). Those arguments become a distraction from the real issue - that real people have real struggles, and need real support. Just the people who have had the courage to reveal something of their struggles on this thread alone show us that many people are struggling in silence. So I reiterate my question: What can be said from the front to help such people with their struggles without them needing to break their silence first? That may, as Dani suggested, lead to them seeking counselling, but what happens first?

Craigs suggestion is good, but perhaps a little too idealistic - it’s going to take a lot of courage on anyone’s part (including a minister’s) to start such a culture. Also, if a minister has just had a brief struggle in the past but is now fine, it may even have the effect of trivialising the longer term struggles endured by others.

Dani - were you saying the people from Liberty actually visited your church? What is involved in such a visit? Do they do that kind of thing regularly?