I’m still having trouble with this whole concept, because I’m starting to remember stuff from long ago associating prophecy, miracles, etc as “signs of an apostle” that might not be relevant today.

Also from a pragmatic level, the more attention there seems to be on “prophecy from God” the less attention there seems to be on God’s word.

Whatever happened to Sola Scripture? By scripture alone…

As John Woodhouse said,

In the first of these articles, I came to the point of saying that where there is the Word of God and faith in God because of that word, there is the totality of Christianity. Is this anti-experiential? No, for it focuses on the central definitive experiences of the Christian life.

The Word and Spirit section of the link above is essential reading for this discussion.

Thanks David for another link to John Woodhouse’s articles. Once again I affirm much of what he has stated there. However what happens when the word itself directs you to do something in the present? For instance, God’s Word says we should pray (in numerous references). God’s word says that we should pray for wisdom (James1.5). We are quite happy to consider that this is a command which flows from the Word, & the wisdom which God gives does not impugn the canonicity of the inscripturated wisdom. We are very content for God to give us wisdom, & to encourage each other to pray for wisdom, because God’s word not only permits it, but instructs us to seek it.
Why then do we have problems with seeking & permitting prophecy, which God’s Word permits and instructs us to do.

My own feeling and where I differ from John Woodhouse’s fine article, is that I think we evangelicals have over-reacted to the Charismatic push for prophecy. Because we rightly are revolted by a modern day prophecy being given equal or superior status to the written Word, & we have seen many people’s faith shipwrecked through abuses, so we want to tone down the need for prophecy. Yet my reading of John’s article saw 2 positions being depicted either 1. you exalt the word as all you need or 2. you seek extra because the word is not enough.
However I fully accept the word is all we need, yet the word instructs us that other events will occur, such as gaining wisdom, such as prophesying, such as answered prayer. If we rigidly applied that word is enough & all we need, then why do we need answered prayer? (no one I know argues for this… but it pushes the logic to its extreme).
I am not arguing for extra-biblical instruction or experiences. I am arguing that if the word says it can happen, then let it happen. & if the word says don’t treat them with contempt, then don’t.

Craig, as far as what instructions I give as to handling or encouraging prophesying in church....

When I come to passages in my preaching schedule that refer to this, then I talk about it in sermons, & outline what I would do etc.

If it occurs, then we handle it at the time. I have taken times in the past to encourage people to share what God is doing in their lives (usually responded with by the stirrings of crickets as people think something like “Ummm, is God doing anything in my life?” - it takes time & effort to help people to recognise what God could possibly be doing in their life in what we consider are the more mundane times when we don’t appreciate his presence & grace. It’s a bit easier when we see a friend converted or a person saved from cancer etc)

Another way to help encourage people see God’s activity is to keep a log of prayers in church. We have been tracking dam levels of up to 8 regions since Oct 2005 in our 5pm church, praying each week for full dams. We have rejoiced when we took the Hunter off our list when it was 100% full last year. We added in Brisbane & Melbourne & keep praying for 100% filled dams). We have kept lists of others & ticked them off when God said YES, & changed them when he said NO, or kept praying when we got NOT YEt, & rejoiced when he said SURPRISE.

From “The Briefing” point 4.1

4.1. Question: meaning of prophecy and prayer then and now

The confusion about prophecy these days is almost as hot as the debate about the word “head”. And to make it more complicated even in the first century they couldn’t agree on what prophecy was. Because of this I think it’s best to define New Testament prophecy in broad terms:

1. First of all, there’s a difference in authority between Old Testament and New Testament prophecy, both in the words spoken and the person who spoke them.

In the Old Testament disobedience to the word of a prophet was equal to disobeying God, with correspondingly serious consequences, but in the New Testament that isn’t so.

In the Old Testament a false prophet was stoned but in the New, prophecies were weighed (1 Cor 14, 1 Thess 5)) and even if a prophecy was rejected, the prophet him or herself lived to see another day.

This diminished authority is why I take it, women were allowed to prophesy in 1 Corinthians 11 but not weigh prophecies in 1 Corinthians 14 or teach and have authority in 1 Timothy 2.
2. It was clearly public and verbal.
3. If it was genuine it was encouraging and pointed to the truth of the gospel (1 Cor 14:24)
4. Both men and women could prophesy in the church gathering—unlike teaching, which women and men who were not gifted as teachers were not to do (1 Tim 2-3).
5. The gift was under the control of the speaker. It was not involuntary or ecstatic.

Now the question I hear you asking is: do we have it today? I think we do.

A few years ago at our church a woman missionary got up and shared with the congregation what was happening with her work as a missionary doctor in a government-run orphanage in Eastern Europe. She spoke for about 10 minutes.

When she finished I lent over and said to Rob “that was the closest thing to prophecy I’ve ever heard”. It was encouraging. It was public. It was focused on the gospel and what God was doing in her life and through her. It was absolutely inspiring. I think we all learnt things about God’s faithfulness and suffering for the sake of the gospel, but there was no sense in which it replaced the sermon.

Now I don’t know if the Corinthians would have called it prophecy but it fits with the broad description I’ve just given you, and I think if we saw more of that sort of thing we’d all benefit.

While Claire’s identification of what she heard as (close to) prophecy correctly matches her list of criteria, that list fails to note that prophecy is distinguished from preaching, evangelising, or encouraging specifically by the fact that it always includes an immediate revelation from God. In other words, her attempt to define prophecy in broad terms is too broad because it omits the one feature of prophecy which distinguishes it from these other activities!

This is essentially the same problem I addressed in my review of Kel Richards’ view which I cited earlier.

Martin (Enkidu) Shields - 23 January 2008 06:54 PM

but I think this is a good definition: “prophecy is the reception and subsequent transmission of spontaneous, divinely originating revelation” (Grudem according to Carson). This definition encompasses all examples of prophecy (in the OT and the NT).

Hey enkers,

In what sense does this definition include the example of Agabus in Acts 21:11? here the bits that are revelatory are not new either to us or to the original intended hearer (compare v 4, where the essence of Agabus’s warning has already been revealed by the Spirit) and the bits that are new are not revelatory (that is, they are wrong when compared to the events subsequently recorded in Acts 21).

Or are you saying that the content of the prophecy need not be new in order to be revelatory?

In which case…

Robert Denham - 22 January 2008 09:16 PM

Only Old Testament Prophets.
Do we execute ministers/pastors when they get their sermons wrong?

not nearly enough ;)

While we wait for Enkidu’s response to Gordon, let’s chew on this.
1. The difference between revealed knowledge in Acts 21:4 and Acts 21:11 is not minimal. Verse 4 says nothing of binding, nor of handing over, nor of arrest. It is a warning not to procede up to Jerusalem, but without details. Therefore to claim that nothing is revelatory is misleading.
2. Agabus accurately foretold that Paul would have problems (a) with the Jews, (b) in Jerusalem, (c) that it involved being bound, (d) that he would be in Gentile custody, not dealt with solely by the Jews. These are accurate.
3. The parts of his message that we may accuse him of not being revelatory, because they are inaccurate when compared to subsequent events are (a) The Jews did not bind him, the Romans did, (b) he was not handed over, but rescued from the raging mob. However, once Paul was in the hands of the Romans, the crowd did call for his death (21:36), and were content for the Romans to execute him (22.22).

To me, the prophecy was very good and revelatory. It was certainly much closer (& more honourable)than the rewrite of history that Claudius Lysias did in his report to Felix in Acts 23.

Robert, I think your examples of how you teach about prophecy in church are good ones.

I also like the way you keep prayer journals, theres one thing I like more than praying and that is getting tangible answers to prayer, which I believe leads us into having greater faith and intimacy with our Lord.

I think also there is a close relationship between the gift of wisdom and prophecy. Say for example an individual / church is praying for wisdom as to the way they should go forward and someone gives a prophetic word that relates to that situation - do we call it a gift of wisdom or prophecy? I think both.

In the case of Paul and Agabus, I think Paul would have drawn great comfort later on during the difficult times he faced remembering what Agabus said and did, knowing that he was still in the Lords will and he was in control.

I think also there is a close relationship between the gift of wisdom and prophecy. Say for example an individual / church is praying for wisdom as to the way they should go forward and someone gives a prophetic word that relates to that situation - do we call it a gift of wisdom or prophecy? I think both.

I used to read that bit from James as being about asking for some kind of revealed knowledge, but then heard it explained by some “heavy hitters” that it was more asking for the Godliness to make wise decisions. The argument stemmed out of the rest of the passage which indicates that someone must believe God to be the source of wisdom, and that His wisdom and rules for life and purposes ARE actually “wise"… otherwise aren’t we being hypocrites asking to have God’s wisdom if we don’t really even trust God’s character and goals and priorities in the first place?

Dave,

I’m not sure that you can truthfully exegete that out of the passage. In fact I would say the context of the passage in James would argue against what you are saying, as James says we are to ask in Faith, not doubting that God is willing to give us what we asked for.

I would say that to truly ask God believing he will grant what has been asked for , is truly trusting in and knowing his character, goals and priorites in the first place.

James 3 indicates what’s going on…

13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.

Does that sound like “Secret messages from God” or stuff about mature Christian character?

So when we read earlier, in the context of terrible suffering requiring perseverance, there should be absolutely no surprise that anyone that “lacks wisdom” or is lacking “a godly character of mind and habit” that we should be told to ask for it, and God will give it generally to ALL without finding fault.

I don’t know that I’ve EVER had a “special message” from God… and yet this passage is saying ALL who trust God would have it. Here is an image of faith being tested by trials, and the question arises about how to have maturity in the way forward under “trials of many kinds”. James seems to be saying that the first step of course is to believe that God is worth it, and GOOD.... and not be “double minded” about whether or not God is good.

2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 Those who doubt should not think they will receive anything from the Lord; 8 they are double-minded and unstable in all they do.

It’s not about if I really truuly wuuly “believe” (turn that belief up to 11 man!) but who I believe in. What is my heartfelt conviction about God? Because if I’m in trials, and doubting God’s goodness… then maybe I’m a hypocrite asking God to give me a mature Christian character.

Dave, I would suggest the context of James 1

Jas 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
Jas 1:6 But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.

Is a bit different to the context of James 3, though there certianly is some overlapping. Though I do agree it is impossible for us to have Godly character without us first asking and seeking God for it.

Suffering = perseverance, character, maturity. It’s a common biblical theme.

It’s just here James describes it as perseverance and asks if anyone “lacks wisdom” — and then later defines wisdom just in case we missed it the first time.

Or did chapter 3 read…

13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their especially deep quiet times in which they receive revelations, words of knowledge, and instant messenger services delivered just in time. Truly amazing revelations delivered just in the nick of time will show you who has true wisdom from God.

I used to read that bit from James as being about asking for some kind of revealed knowledge, but then heard it explained by some “heavy hitters” that it was more asking for the Godliness to make wise decisions.

Hi Dave,
this is a bit of a tangent for the thread, however:

What is wisdom? The reason the “big-hitters” (whoever they are doesn’t bother me). ! Corinthains 1 & 2 speak a lot about wisdom, resulting in Jesus being our wisdom, & his message being the foolishness of this world, but God’s wisdom. The truly wise thig is to proclaim Christ & live for Christ becoming more like him. I suppose this is where the WWJD movement would shine their bracelets & say “We told you so”.

Back to James, the wisdom he speaks of (it seems to me) is applied knowlege of how to live as a Christian in any and every circumstance. We may know the facts, but true wisdom comes in being able to apply them in the circumstances in a way which glorifies Christ. The more we are godly, the wiser we are. The more our godliness shos through in our decisions, the wiser we will be. Praying for wisdom may lead to being informed of some of the already revealed knowledge from God, (as distinct to freshly revealed) which we can then apply in a loving (godly) way. Or it may lead to getting told or “instictively” knowing how to apply something which we’ve known for ages. Or it could be a mix of both. To pick up Craig’s thoughts for a second, the revelation may be someone tapping you on the shoulder & saying “psst, do you realise that you could do this,...? Not brand new revelation, but new to you. Whether that is prophecy, I don’t know… I am inclined to think Craig may prefer to call it a word of wisdom… but I see this sort of thing happen quite a lot.

Can God zap us with a brand new bitof revelation when we pray for wisdom? He can, but in my experience He tends to show us how to apply what He has already revealed into the situation we currently face. That is propbably summed up in the words of the “big-hitters” as “applying Godliness to making wise decisions”.