Passages in the NT seem to me to suggest that prophecy is a gift available to believers now. What is a good definition for prophecy and where do we see it in life today?

At our last MYC we had a good talk on prophecy, unfortunately I can’t make much sense of my notes. I’ll try my best though, and also see if I can find a recording…

Prophecy is speaking the knowledge of God with a specificity of the moment.

Prophecy is not Prophecy is not prophecy

Prophecy: OT prophecy (Isaiah, Zeke etc) is not NT prophecy

Prophecy: possession of all believers (has something to do with the ourpouring of the spirit on all)

prophecy: the gift of prophecy, a heightened expression of what all believers have, just as the gift of faith is a heightened expression of the faith of all believers.

Agabus (Acts 11:27-30, Acts 21:10-11) would seem to me to be a good example of a New Testament prophet.

I think there is a remarkable reluctance in evangelical circles to allow prophecy to be fresh revelation from God. As if this would re-open the cannon or something. It would seem to me that God can speak directly to a certain situation through a prophet (as with Agabus) without impinging on the doctrine of the sufficiency of scripture. That’s not to say we should accept the word of every nut who declares to us their ‘prophecy’, of course.

For many years I have been given prophecies by people convinced that God has given them the message. They have ranged in length, detail and purpose.
According to 1 Corinthians 14, and to my ordination and induction vows, I have a responsibility (with other elders) to weigh up the issues raised in them to see if they are consistent with scripture or not. Some of them are interesting but weird. Others are more challenging. Others are intriguing.

I know of a few examples where the messages given to other people have changed lives dramatically, & God has used them to help people grow in their faith & deal with issues. I find that the problem comes when there has been a “successful” prophecy, that people will naturally tend to think that the deliverer is more special or more full of wisdom, or closer to God. This is not always true. It is like the bloke who years ago came to me after walking around his pool & kicking his toe on a stone, looked down & saw a cross on the stone. He then got dressed & came to see me to find out more about Jesus, because of that stone. As I read the prophecies described in the NT, prophecy should help people by informing them of situations (such as a famine or warning of hardship etc) or lead to stir people to seek help or do something. I led an interesting Bible Study series looking at all the visions in the New Testament… I was amazed at how often God pushed people into further ministries through visions.

Once again though, we need care & caution in interpreting them, not retreating into a blanket “they will never happen” stance.

G’day Geoff,

Passages in the NT seem to me to suggest that prophecy is a gift available to believers now. What is a good definition for prophecy and where do we see it in life today?

This is a good question. I would say prophecy is a word / story etc that comes to a person about a situation instantly that in the natural they would not normally know.  Robert your post was a good one, I too have seen extremes in prophecy as well as valid ones.

Coming from a more charismatic style of worship, I have heard people prophesey many times during a worship service when a time has been opened for any one to share if they wanted too. I would say that the normal course of events for people to experience the prophetic it would be in their small groups.

When it comes to the prophetic many people get up tight about a closed cannon, and so they believe God no longer speaks today through individuals in a NT prophetic way. However when one studies the Scriptures more closely we can see that only one prophet wrote a NT book and that was Jude, and though many prophecies are recorded in the NT many more are not, yet those non recorded prophecies are still regarded as being Gods word for the situation at hand. The same goes for all the OT prophets, as they do not record every prophecy that was spoken by the prophets - yet the unrecorded ones still would have been Gods word spoken through the prophet for that situation in that time.

I have personally been prompted to give a prophetic word at times, mostly on a personal scale, sometimes in a more directional way for the church / church leaders and a few times on a more national level through a national prayer group.

Blessings craig b

Robert Denham - 22 January 2008 11:29 AM

I led an interesting Bible Study series looking at all the visions in the New Testament…

Hey Robert you couldn’t do a cut and paste of those references could you?

Adam

G’day Craig
Where are we told Jude was a prophet? Think I’ve missed this one.

Naaah. I don’t buy the interpretation of “prophecy” as some kind of “future telling”. The bible is enough for all our needs…

Sola Scriptura and all that.

My main understanding of “prophecy” today is someone who can target bible preaching into a very specific context while remaining utterly true to the basic gospel. It’s very pragmatic, and might be rebuking a particular generation for a particular kind of rebellion. EG: previous campaigns against slavery.

An example today might be my mate Neil Cameron who basically predicted this year’s market collapse back in August 2005 and urged caution. But this is based on economic disciplines I can’t quite get my head around (and a small measure of Neil’s oil insights, which I’ve kind of got my head around), nothing miraculous.

The miracle bit is that God’s Spirit helps breath a new life and heart into us, so that some of us even care enough about God’s Word to apply it to our generation. So that’s my take on prophecy… the bible in one hand, the newspaper in the other, and someone smart enough to relate one to the other.

in the natural

Anyone ever read “Sacred diaries of Adrian Plass, aged 37 and 3/4?” He had so much fun with this phrase.

Hi Adam,

here is a link to those in Acts

Do we execute people when they get their prophecies wrong?

Only Old Testament Prophets.

Peter O’Brien said in a lecture to me many years ago, that the equivalent of the OT prophets in the NT were the Apostles, who could write scripture.

Do we execute ministers/pastors when they get their sermons wrong?

One problem that I have to keep facing David, is the Scriptures themselves say that prophesying is a gift of the Spirit. Whether it is done poorly or faithfully, I have to come to terms with the reality that the Scriptures we love, respect and cherish as being God’s Word allow for God to communicate through people in prophecies. I hold to the sufficiency of the written word as being all that is needed for salvation, but a non-salvation-significant message may still come. Do I find it in the newspapers (which you have in the other hand to the Bible, as you stated earlier)? If God tells us that ministers/teaching-elders/presbyteroi can teach the apostle’s teachings and people (after comparing the teaching to the scriptures) are expected to accept it as valid teaching and learn from, then how far different is that from God telling us that some gifted Christians can give a message, which elders etc after comparing to the Scriptures, can accept and share as teaching & learn from (although it is not as solid a rock as the accepted teaching of the apostles)?
The Scriptures still remain the canon of faith.

Handling prophecies is a quagmire, as is handling the messengers of the prophecies. It is too easy to discount it all & deny its place in the church. I believe it is also against Scripture to deny it & say it cannot happen. It may not happen. But it may. I leave God to be God, who is true to His word, & who has made provision for prophecy to occur. Unlike some, I fail to see how it has ceased, just because we have the accepted completed canon.

Where does the NT define “prophecy”?

If speaking of the interpretation of tongues and receiving that as some kind of prophecy:
1/ The bible doesn’t call that prophecy, so neither should we
2/ I understand NT tongues is actually all about interpreting human languages one to another.

There’s also the question of timelines. Some read 1 Corinthians 12 as a universal set of gifts applicable for all time for the church.

Yet there are no apostles today. They had to be eyewitnesses of Jesus death and resurrection. Paul had trouble dealing with this and admitted himself to be an apostle that saw the Lord last, as one “abnormally born” 1 Corinthians 15:8 — so he at least saw the risen Lord.

So on the one hand we have a list of “gifts”, but later in the famous 1 Corinthians 12 passage we have a list of people who are gifts… the metaphors between gifts people might have and people are mixed up. Please note that some of those people/gifts are no longer with us. (Apostles).

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues [d]? Do all interpret?

Yet in a way we do have the apostles, because we have their written teachings, God’s word, and this is enough. So although it’s not spelt out, maybe we also have prophecy, because we have the written records of Agabus and other important NT prophecies that were given. We have the stories of Peter busting out of jail, of special messages from the Holy Spirit to Apostles at vital points in the exploding early church mission as Acts 1:8 is fulfilled and the gospel goes out into all the earth.... of miracles and tongues at Pentecost and all manner of important events both “human” and “miraculous/spiritual” that fulfil the gospel imperative of going out into all the world.

Here’s the clincher for me: in all that early church explosive expansion, how do I know what is describing what happened, and how do I know what is prescribing norms for church behaviour down through all ages?

My understanding is that 1 Corinthians 12 is describing a mixture of gifts that have happened at various times in early church history. Then it was to illustrate that the Corinthians were not to be too jealous of more “prestigious” gifts but be thankful for them all and grateful for their own. Now it may be to illustrate a rich history in God’s activity in expanding His church and recording His word.

I think it is most honest to read 1 Corinthians 12 with a large degree of humility about actually knowing what various gifts are, let alone being too dogmatic about them all applying to today. The vast majority of NT commands for church life seem to be about doctrine and godliness, about hearing, obeying, and spreading God’s word. I don’t think there’s enough in 1 Cor 12 to spell out exactly what is meant by tongues or prophecy, and so I remain unconvinced that church services and programs have to be altered to include a “time of tongues” or a “time of prophecy”.

Thank you David, for your reply.

I apologise that I am finding it jumps a bit to several arguments, so I will respond to bits of it, & if time permits I may come back for more.

Here’s the clincher for me: in all that early church explosive expansion, how do I know what is describing what happened, and how do I know what is prescribing norms for church behaviour down through all ages?

Yes, this is a bit of a puzzler. Yet some bits are more clear than others. For instance 1 Corinthians 14:39 “Therefore my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.”
That isn’t a description of what was happening, it was a command to do something. For how long? Was it specific to that time only? Well, let’s look at the start of chapter 14. v1 “Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.” The chapter starts and ends on a similar theme. In fact chapters 12-14 flow nicely showing that no matter what gift you have, it should always be flooded in the love for God & for each other that chapter 13 describes. Loveless Christianity isn’t worth a 1 cent coin at the bank.
So if we accept that Paul’s command to Follow the way of love is a timeless command for each one of us, then how can we separate it from the very next breaths he took in scratchings on the papyrus? Surely we are to eagerly desire spiritual gifts & especially prophecy.

Where does the NT define “prophecy”?

Does it need to? We are given examples of it. We are told to eagerly desire it. I think that a modern person’s desire for a definition of prophecy would be nice to find in the Bible, but there are enough examples in the old and new testaments for most people to have a general idea that some sort of prediction coming from God which edifies the church is intended. Paul’s comparison in 1 Corinthians 14:1-25 between tongues & prophecy has much more to do with understanding and edification of the church (& others) as compared to the individual. The interpreted tongue may not be a prophecy, it may be a word of knowledge or wisdom… I agree that we don’t know for sure what is what… but that in no way diminishes the urgent appeal from Paul to allow for in their church & to seek prophecies.

Yet there are no apostles today.

This argument sounds a bit like the Sadducees chatting to Jesus, who responded with an astonishing claim in Matthew 22:29-32.
Jesus established his church on the foundations of himself & then the apostles. I agree with you in relation to their eyewitness accounts & ministry & writings being vital. Though they are now with the Lord, we still have the apostles for His church.

You then use a cute comparison between the apostles and prophets.

So although it’s not spelt out, maybe we also have prophecy, because we have the written records of Agabus and other important NT prophecies that were given. We have the stories of Peter busting out of jail, of special messages from the Holy Spirit to Apostles at vital points in the exploding early church mission as Acts 1:8 is fulfilled and the gospel goes out into all the earth.... of miracles and tongues at Pentecost and all manner of important events both “human” and “miraculous/spiritual” that fulfil the gospel imperative of going out into all the world.

The argument would be fine if we did not have commands to keep on being eager to seek the greater gifts and especially prophecy. No one is urged specifically to keep on seeking apostleship, not even Timothy.

Mind you, I would say that Acts 1:8 is “partially fulfilled” in the book of Acts, otherwise Richard Johnson sinned (or was under dubious Biblical authority) in coming to Australia with the First Fleet, let alone any of his preaching in England. [By the way, does the Bible say that we can take the gospel beyond the ends of the earth? Should we put chaplains in space vehicles, or eventually have missions to colonies off earth?]

Must go on that weird note.

I’ll have to think more about your points Robert, but right now I wanted to share that my previous internet hobby before Peak Oil was terraforming Mars. Even though I come from a welfare background and am not very technical, I just loved reading various sites about how Mars might be settled, the technology and systems required, and how it might one day eventually be terraformed (if the Lord doesn’t return for the next few hundred years at least).

In that case, we’d definitely need churches and missions up there.

But my point was that in a biblical theology sense, God’s kingdom had forever exploded out into the world as opposed to being defined by just one very specific nation, culture, language, and people group. In that sense I think Acts 1:8 was pretty much fulfilled. I’m Amil, and this probably affects my view of that verse. I hold that Jesus could have returned and brought on the eschaton at any point after the bible was written, and it’s only God’s grace and kindness that prevents his return now. So I of course am prone to seeing Acts 1:8 as having the “ancient world” in mind.