I just think the poll is slanted, it should have at least a couple of other points I could click on that may represent what I think of the CDP and it’s views]
Can we edit the poll, then? What DO you think of the CDP and its views?
I certainly don’t agree with a ten year ban on Muslim immigration on face value, but as Phillip Southwell has said on another post, there are those who are pointing to danger in that sort of immigration. As I said earlier I don’t see much value in “click” polls anyway, but maybe a couple of more circumspect points such as: “Do you see that the CDP is earnest in its desire to represent Christian values, but can sometimes be misguided in its approach?” That is a suggestion folks, don’t exegete it and demolish it, it is only a suggested extra question, some may have some others.
The point with polls is that they can be manipulated to say whatever you like. An outrageous example could be a poll we have on this site about domestic abuse. We could put the question “Husbands when did you stop beating your wives? Was it: 1 month ago, 3 months ago, or six months ago? Click on the appropriate answer. Of course that is a silly example, but it shows that polls can be skewed to get inappropriate responses. I am not suggesting the poll on this thread is like that, but it can be a bit skewed. But Jeannine you certainly have made me be a little more discerning about simply accepting CDP as a “Christian” party. There are really no such things as Christian parties are there?
I’ve been browsing these forums on and off for a long time now but this whole matter of a moratorium on Muslim immigration really has got my goat…
I still clearly remember when I first read about this policy of the CDP. To say it is unbiblical is an understatement!
Here we have many muslims coming from countries hostile and in some cases closed to the gospel to our shores where we can reach out to them and speard the good news without fear (for both the speaker and listener alike). And the CDP wants to stop this! What better opportunity to reach this group of people than in our own backyard.
Then there is the added advantage of ex-muslims being trained in evangelism and being able to return to their home countries to spread the gospel in their native tongue, much more effectively than most of us could.
We have a missionary family in our own congregation that has come from overseas specifically to reach Muslims, if that doesn’t show the opportunity that we have then I don’t know what would.
“Do you see that the CDP is earnest in it’s desire to represent Christian values, but can sometimes be misguided in its approach?”
Yes, that would be me, but perhaps not quite strong enough.
Geoff Chambers - 28 November 2007 11:21 AM
I would say while the CDP genuinely wants to be representative of Christian views and be important by being a Christian voice in parliament, they have a tendency to be Unbiblical in their Christian Views, and at times dangerous and divisive. :-)
I hear Fred Nile is a wonderful Christian man who wants to make a stand for Jesus, and if it is true I think that is wonderful. However, I wouldn’t vote for him, and sometimes the things he (and his party) say are cringeworthy and are a PR disaster for Christians.
I’ve been browsing these forums on and off for a long time now but this whole matter of a moratorium on Muslim immigration really has got my goat…
I still clearly remember when I first read about this policy of the CDP. To say it is unbiblical is an understatement!
Here we have many muslims coming from countries hostile and in some cases closed to the gospel to our shores where we can reach out to them and speard the good news without fear (for both the speaker and listener alike). And the CDP wants to stop this! What better opportunity to reach this group of people than in our own backyard.
Then there is the added advantage of ex-muslims being trained in evangelism and being able to return to their home countries to spread the gospel in their native tongue, much more effectively than most of us could.
We have a missionary family in our own congregation that has come from overseas specifically to reach Muslims, if that doesn’t show the opportunity that we have then I don’t know what would.
Daniel
Hi Daniel,
Welcome to the forum and thanks for that post. Muslim immigration presents untold opportunities and that is a big plus for it. And may of these muslims come to faith in Jesus. That is something to praise God for.
I’ve been browsing these forums on and off for a long time now but this whole matter of a moratorium on Muslim immigration really has got my goat…
I still clearly remember when I first read about this policy of the CDP. To say it is unbiblical is an understatement!
Here we have many muslims coming from countries hostile and in some cases closed to the gospel to our shores where we can reach out to them and speard the good news without fear (for both the speaker and listener alike). And the CDP wants to stop this! What better opportunity to reach this group of people than in our own backyard.
Daniel
Hi Daniel,
You make your point well. Muslims have come to Australia from foreign lands to escape persecution and a few of them have become Christians. It is a wonderful thing that we should provide hospitality.
I suggest however they may be more likely to be converted in their home of origin. I don’t know whether you know of the remarkable ministry of Father Zakaria the Coptic priest who 40 yrs ago underwent evangelical conversion and today has a TV programme beamed into the Middle East with an estimated 50 million tuned in. Hundred’s and hundreds of Muslims are being converted to Christ particularly in Egypt. My arabic Christian friends in Melbourne are also listening to him. Once a week on Friday he has a pal talk programme with a 1,000 Muslims crowded into the “room” listening and asking questions - I’m told it goes for 4 hrs.
The concern with Muslims is with large numbers coming in (which is currently not the situation) and not accepting Australia more or less as it is, creating ghettoes (sacred space) wanting to introduce sharia. All these concerns plus the terrorist one relate back to what is happening in the UK, France, Holland, Sweden, etc.
Personally, while understandable, I think the CDP made a bad call.
David I’m glad you agree it’s a bad call, but nevertheless what part of it is understandable when someone is trying to score political points from base xenophobia? The concern isn’t (for the CDP) with large numbers of Muslim immigration, it’s ANY Muslim immigration. It’s wrong and it’s the opposite of the Christian ethos in my view. Here’s one of Fred Nile’s gentler flyers, sadly they don’t have links to the AUSSIE VALUES ones that I can find.
I’m still waiting for Fred to campaign against the extremist group Bahasa he mentioned recently in a radio interview.
David I’m glad you agree it’s a bad call, but nevertheless what part of it is understandable when someone is trying to score political points from base xenophobia? The concern isn’t (for the CDP) with large numbers of Muslim immigration, it’s ANY Muslim immigration. It’s wrong and it’s the opposite of the Christian ethos in my view. Here’s one of Fred Nile’s gentler flyers, sadly they don’t have links to the AUSSIE VALUES ones that I can find.
The part that is understandable relates to
a) the history of Muslim conquest of lands where Christians were once the majority and the subsequent treatment of remaining Christians over the centuries, including the present time. (I invite you to seek out and talk with arabic Christians - I can give you some contacts in Sydney. Just as a starter why don’t you read Justice Kirby’s recent speech that I drew attention to on another thread.
b) the present experience of Muslim immigration into Europe. Again there is a vast range of material about this which again I could refer you to.
When an immigrant community demonstrates unwillingness to integrate, harbours those who do not wish the host community well, in fact wants to live under their own law, then I think caution is required. I don’t know of any other immigrant community that poses as great a challenge, certainly not Vietnamese and other Asians, certainly not Indians whether Sikhs, Hindus, etc, not the Sudanese Christian community either.
Just as I’m ashamed to see a prominent Christian associated with the flyer that you drew my attention to, nevertheless I am concerned about the demonising of the CDP that has been going on, on this and other threads. I think we ought to be very cautious about throwing epithets around like “xenophobic”.
a) the history of Muslim conquest of lands where Christians were once the majority and the subsequent treatment of remaining Christians over the centuries, including the present time. (I invite you to seek out and talk with arabic Christians - I can give you some contacts in Sydney. Just as a starter why don’t you read Justice Kirby’s recent speech that I drew attention to on another thread.
I did the hard yards and read Justice Kirby’s speech. I’m not sure he would support your use of his speech to support the CDP’s Islamic immigration stance. Whilst he does point out some worrying issues in some cases where Shariah (sp) law has been used (and it must be noted that this occurred, in the case of Lina Joy, when the national courts opted out of doing their job according to the constitution… you must read this whole post. It was very interesting), he makes no suggestion for a cessation of Islamic migration. He does, however, say this:
Truly universal mutual respect: My point is that it is not good enough for Christians, or people of the Christian tradition, to be selective about tolerance and acceptance. We cannot selectively denounce Islam for its views on apostasy but then do equally nasty and cruel things to others, at home or elsewhere, by invoking imperfect understandings of our own religious tradition and texts.
In Australia, at least, we must be truly committed to the principle of mutual respect and acceptance that lies at the heart of the world-wide movement for the protection of fundamental, universal human rights.
This is the heart of this thread. The “invoking imperfect understandings of our own religious tradition and texts” is what the CDP must be held accountable for, by Christians who feel they are doing this. It is not just Muslims who will think this is what Christianity is about, but the wider community.
Further, you said,
a) the history of Muslim conquest of lands where Christians were once the majority and the subsequent treatment of remaining Christians over the centuries, including the present time.
makes it “understandable when someone is trying to score political points from base xenophobia”.
To quote Kath Day-Knight, “I’ve got two words to say to you...”
The Crusades.
Another classic example of what can go wrong when Christians, due to illiteracy, absence of printing presses, or greed, get stirred up to act in a matter contrary to Scripture by the loud chants of people claiming to be protecting our faith. We, however, are without excuse. We, and the CDP, have Bibles and literacy as tools. Again, the point of this thread is to guage whether Christians believe the CDP misrepresents Biblical Christianity.
When an immigrant community demonstrates unwillingness to integrate, harbours those who do not wish the host community well, in fact wants to live under their own law, then I think caution is required. I don’t know of any other immigrant community that poses as great a challenge, certainly not Vietnamese and other Asians, certainly not Indians whether Sikhs, Hindus, etc, not the Sudanese Christian community either.
There a probably numerous Indigenous Australians out there that can think of one such immigrant community.
But again, I think it is the hostility faced by these migrant communities which leads to conditions where “those who do not wish the host community well” being “harboured”. In the first post, I made a point about Ian Smith’s views creating the petrie dish in which Mugabe’s countering views could flourish. I think it would be silly to not consider whether the CDP and others are giving reasons for an “unwillingness to integrate”. We may be the host community, but we aren’t being very hospitable when we single out minorities and say we don’t want any more of “them” to come here.
As a Christian, I would prefer the CDP left such policies to the One Nation style parties. Don’t you? You said “Just as I’m ashamed to see a prominent Christian associated with the flyer that you drew my attention to, nevertheless I am concerned about the demonising of the CDP that has been going on, on this and other threads. I think we ought to be very cautious about throwing epithets around like “xenophobic”.”
What do you suggest we do, then, to call “a prominent Christian” to account? Have you done this?
I did the hard yards and read Justice Kirby’s speech. I’m not sure he would support your use of his speech to support the CDP’s Islamic immigration stance.
Jeannine,
With respect you have not got off to a good start here. I did not use Kirby’s speech to support the CDP’s Islamic immigration stance. I have said that whilst I found the CDP’s stance understandable for reasons already stated and which Justice Kirby’s speech also touched on if only in a peripheral way, I also found their stance regrettable and the Fred Nile’s election leaflet referred to earlier as shameful.
jeannine baird - 03 December 2007 05:04 PM
Further, you said,
a) the history of Muslim conquest of lands where Christians were once the majority and the subsequent treatment of remaining Christians over the centuries, including the present time.
makes it “understandable when someone is trying to score political points from base xenophobia”.
To quote Kath Day-Knight, “I’ve got two words to say to you...”
The Crusades.
Another classic example of what can go wrong when Christians, due to illiteracy, absence of printing presses, or greed, get stirred up to act in a matter contrary to Scripture by the loud chants of people claiming to be protecting our faith.
Jeannine,
I am sorry to see you dismiss the persecution of Christians going on for the past 13 centuries, somehow seeking to quench that fact by making us cringe with the utterance of two words, “The Crusades”!
I think this is a reasonably accurate description of Christians experience of MUslim conquest found here
““Outright hostility” has indeed existed between Muslims and Christians, for the simple reason that for 13 centuries Islam grew and spread by war, plunder, rapine, and enslavement throughout the Christian Middle East. Allah’s armies destroyed regions that were culturally Christian for centuries, variously slaughtering, enslaving, and converting their inhabitants, or allowing them to live as oppressed dhimmi, their lives and property dependent on a temporary “truce” that Muslim overlords could abrogate at any time.
And let’s not forget the seven-century-long Islamic occupation of Spain, the centuries of raids into southern Italy and southern France, the near-sack of Rome in 846, the occupation of Sicily and Greece, the four-century-long occupation of the Balkans, the destruction of Constantinople, the two sieges of Vienna, the kidnapping of Christian youths to serve as janissaries from the fourteenth to the nineteenth centuries, the continual raiding of the northern Mediterranean littoral for slaves from 1500 to 1800, and the current jihadist terrorist attacks against the West.
These historical crimes dwarf those committed during the few centuries of the Crusades, which, for all of their excesses and mixed motives, were fought to liberate from Muslim hegemony the lands that had been Christian for six and a half centuries before Islam burst forth from the Arabian Peninsula. Many contemporary Christians betray their moral and spiritual incoherence when they demonize the Crusades but excuse, as justified “liberation,” the numerous Arab assaults on Israel’s “occupation” of lands to which the Jews have a 3,000-year-old connection.”
Jeannine,
You go on to say, “I think it would be silly to not consider whether the CDP and others are giving reasons for an “unwillingness to integrate”. We may be the host community, but we aren’t being very hospitable when we single out minorities and say we don’t want any more of “them” to come here. “
I basically agree with you on this. The only caution I have on this (and we presently are a very long way from being in this position) is that if an immigrant community or significant portions of it decides it it hates the prevailing culture, undertakes terrorist actions (9/11, 7/7, Madrid, etc) and wishes to live under its own law (which I don’t believe any other post WW2 immigrant community has done), then it is unavoidable that Australians and not just the CDP will question the continuance of that particular community in Australia.
In the meantime Christians of all people should be showing hospitality and kindness to their Muslim neighbours, but without the pretence that we all worship the same God. I myself spent time earlier this year visiting a mosque, talking, debating, playing ping pong, etc.
Happy New Year everyone.
I haven’t touched this for a while, but I think it’s still an issue that needs to be addresses.
Particularly in the light of Fred Nile rallying with the Camden residents who oppose the building of the Islamic School in their area (and seeing there is no rallies opposing our rights as Anglicans to build our schools...), are we willing to call the CDP to account for misrepresenting Biblical Christianity? If so, what should we do about it?
I believe that now, between elections, and before any future CDP campaigns are planned, we should let them know our objections.
However, I’m still not sure where I stand on the immigration thing.
EG: When David P wrote the following…
I basically agree with you on this. The only caution I have on this (and we presently are a very long way from being in this position) is that if an immigrant community or significant portions of it decides it it hates the prevailing culture, undertakes terrorist actions (9/11, 7/7, Madrid, etc) and wishes to live under its own law (which I don’t believe any other post WW2 immigrant community has done), then it is unavoidable that Australians and not just the CDP will question the continuance of that particular community in Australia.
... I immediately thought “but by then it’s too late”.
IF “immigration and Jihad” is a plan that the extremists wish to use to conquer the world (as documented by one ABC documentary many years ago), then by the time they get the “critical mass” together in a host nation, it’s already too late. They’ve started agitating.
That appalling “Aussie values” pamphlet raises a very important issue. Apparently (and this might be exaggerated coming from such an appallingly racist pamphlet) while Muslims make up only 10% of the French population, they are having 50% of the babies.
“Immigration and Jihad” could have “and breeding” added in there.
It seems to be that immigration is encouraged with all the normal motives — but once a critical mass is gathered, the ring leaders start agitating. Christ church Gladesville talks of persecution in Indonesia where a sister-church they were supporting had the Sharia law extremists come in and stir up Muslims against their Christian friends. They are “reminded” of various extreme passages in the Koran, and then told it is their Muslim duty to cleans the area of “those that cause mischief in the land”. (That’s us folks, for not submitting to the will of Allah!) Some Muslims in the Siluwase village I’m thinking of were brave enough to resist this and smuggle their long time Christian friends out — but when the Jihadist’s are threatening to kill your kids if you don’t kill your neighbours, that’s some fairly nasty pressure being brought to bare on a whole community, don’t you think?
This is more than a Mafia style “get rich quick” family scheme, but a religious dogma central to Islam. There are 2 spheres of the world, the sphere of “peace” which is under submission to Allah, and the sphere of “War” that we are in. Us mischief makers simply must be brought into the arena of “peace” — and despite all the liberal Muslims that are affected by our education and values in the western world, it really seems that the more radical home countries have tentacles that can reach into foreign Muslim groups and cause trouble by reminding them that they still live in the “sphere of war”. And as far as I can tell, that’s how the Koran really IS to be read… the “liberal” Muslims are playing games with the text just as “liberal Christians” are watering down key concepts as well. (Sorry Owen, not calling you a Muslim. ;-)
It is worth noting that there has been significant opposition to the anti-Muslim policy by Gordon Moyes, who also represents CDP in the NSW Upper House. Here is an extract from a recent e-mail:
Nothing has divided the Christian Democratic Party as much as public statements and publications calling for a moratorium on Muslim immigration to this country, and the closure of Muslim schools. This was not a policy that came about through careful debate and prayer by CDP members. It was an idea issued in a press release by the Rev Fred Nile during his campaign to be elected at the last State Election. The issue of the closure of Islamic Schools came about through another Press release by Rev Fred Nile prior to the Federal election. After a spirited rejection of the immigration moratorium, this was presented at a later Management Committee and a State Council meeting and endorsed as election policy seeing we had already printed thousands of brochures.
However, a number of branches declined to distribute the letterbox material, and some even printed their own. The issue of the closure of Islamic Schools in New South Wales has never been discussed or endorsed. No debate has been encouraged and no alternate views have been published in any official CDP publication. It is deplorable that policy should be made on the run like this. It is certainly not democratic in its methodology nor Christian in its theological application. I offered my own website as a place for discussion or presentation of members views. We were overwhelmed by members who totally despaired that such policies were promoted by the CDP. (See the section responses from our Readers.) This is an example of wedge politics � creating an issue that will cause fear and anxiety in the minds of some citizens that will drive them away from other parties and into voting for the CDP, which promises simple and probably unworkable solutions. This is not a methodology that has the approval of any Christian denomination or one that presents us in a very good light. Criticism from churches, clergy and Christians alike was uniformly condemnatory of the CDP and our public figures. Only Pauline Hanson came out in support! There are social issues caused by some Muslims, but what is the Christian response? Condemning a whole race or religious group and preventing them from coming to Australia as refugees or immigrants on the basis of race or religion is not acceptable policy for Christians. We have examples of the Good Samaritan in the teaching of Jesus that is total abrogated by such a policy. Such a policy does nothing to solve the social issues caused by some people from Muslim and non-Muslim backgrounds, but only inflames the situation.
He then gives a very well reasoned argument as to why this policy is a very bad one and then quotes some of the replies he got to previous comments on this issue. A lot of the comments were strongly opposed to the policy. It is hard to believe Fred Nile would go down this path of dividing his support base and antagonising his own parliamentary colleague, but he has!
I think Gordon has now also made it clear he thinks it is time for ‘generational change’ in the leadership of the CDP.
I am looking for a link to the full article, and will try to post it when I find it.
[Note: this was also posted in the ‘election wrap-up forum’, but I think it belongs here too.]
Yes, I think Gordon makes a good point about those fleeing persecution and claiming refugee status. A blanket “no Muslims allowed” sign on Australia is hardly representative of a compassionate policy. On the other hand… there’s those “spheres of peace and war” again, built right into the Koran.
Anyone here read it? I got about half way before other life developments exploded onto my agenda. (Harry’s Leukaemia.) The attitude to non-Muslims was very clear. We have to either convert or show “proper subservience” and pay a tax for not being Muslim, otherwise we can be cleansed from the land.
I think this story of Fred Nile and Muslim immigration does highlight the dangers in Christians setting up their own political parties. Politics is the art of the feasible which means cobbling together alliances which means making compromises which means offending part of your support base.
It won’t be long before Family First offend significant prtion of their support base. I found it significant that the CPD/FF vote fell this past election, if only marginally.
Even though I think Fred Nile’s support of the opposition to an Islamic School in Camden unwise, I basically agree with Dave Lankshear’s comments. I am just finishing off an article for Australian Presbyterian on the call of the 138 Muslim Scholars to the Pope and other Christian Leaders for discussion to effect peace between Islam and Christianity on the basis of love of God and of neighbour - I will post a link when complete.
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