jeannine baird wrote,

The CDP in this election have gone even further, calling for an immediate suspension of Islamic Immigration. Such a hateful and divisive stance is racist and unchristian.

Islam isn’t a race.  It’s a religion.

Furthermore the Mugabe regime in Zimbabwe is the result of Ian Smith’s ideas.

No.  Mugabe has a brain, a mind and ideas of his own.  The responsibility for Zimbabwe’s current state is his.  That Ian Smith was a racist does not absolve Mugabe.  Botha and de Klerk were racists too but on his release from prison Nelson Mandela never behaved as Mugabe has behaved.

sorry, I dont know the first thing about this subject

Islam might be a religion, but we all know what images come to mind when the CDP start discussing a limit on Muslim immigration.

What images might they be Dave?

Images of, say, Indonesians?  My sister-in-law is Indonesian and my three nephews are therefore part-Indonesian.  They’re Catholic.

Images of Lebanese people?  My mother lives next door to Lebanese people.  She sews for the kids and holds sign-language-type conversations with their grandmother when she comes here on a visit.  She’s friends with the Lebanese fellow who runs a sort of pizza shop around the corner.  Of course they’re all Christian Lebanese.  The Muslim Lebanese who are her other neighbours have caused her all sorts of troubles, as have the Muslims of whatever race she and her elderly friends meet when they go shopping at Bankstown.  Being spat on is not fun for old widowed ladies.  I should add also that she has had problems with another neighbour who is of European descent.  That man’s behaviour indicates to me that he is not a Christian.

The problem is not race but religion.

Having said that I will also say that from my perspective, as a Christian, I see Muslim immigration here as an opportunity to spread the Gospel in a safe environment.  I hope that work continues on apace.  On the other hand I can understand why politicians, with an eye on maintaining social cohesion, might want to limit Muslim immigration.

You are putting words in my mouth when you say that I am saying that christians should “shut up” in public about the CDP. If you read my post carefully you would have seen that I said “At the very least if there is public rebukes (sic), let it be done graciously and in a careful manner. “ There should be a process with sinful behaviour rather than ad hoc smear jobs and gossip that may slander those that cannot fight back. Far preferable is putting questions and comments to people directly than simply sniping on a forum and conducting shabby internet polls.

Well, first of all I was trying to discern where you’re coming from. I was trying to work out what you were saying. No offense was intended Mike, I apologise for communicating poorly.

Actually the poll on this thread is quite revealing in that the “racist” and “dangerous” options have attracted only a very small amount of votes. A lot of people obviously have problems with the CDP but not to the extent that they would describe them as being horrible. The poll - for all its accuracy - seems to suggest that there is a big divide between those who see the importance of the CDP and those who question its actions.

I would very much like someone from the CDP to come to this thread and contribute. I, for one, would be very interested to hear what they say and how they respond to this discussion.

Apparently there’s a forum somewhere on the CDP website but I couldn’t access it. I was quite willing to go there and inform them of this discussion.

I think the chapter gives me and you and all of us some points to remember don’t you think?  I feel deeply ashamed of my attitudes and behaviour when I read James. I certainly don’t feel proud enough to point it just at somebody else who may deserve it.

The passage and context in James is terrific and very pertinent to your point Jeannine, but why don’t you take it up with your brothers and sisters in the CDP?  If you feel they are sinning go directly to them and tell them so.  If they don’t listen, take another one or two mature Christians with you.  The early church did not have 5 question internet polls to decide whether someone was sinning or not. If you feel they are disobeying God don’t just say so here, bring it up directly to them. Our Lord gives some clear guidlelines about this in Matthew 18.

Michael, I have emailed them the link. Let’s see what happens. I hope one or two mature Christians, who find fault with the CDP representing Christ to Australia in the way they do, will add their comments.
Unfortunately I can’t make myself righteous enough to be without fault before I challenge the CDP. My conscience suggests I would be sinning worse to feel this way and fail to act (and I assume from other peoples’ responses on this site; even to the poll, that other people feel this way about the CDP’s policies too). This post, and even the poll, are a starting point for challenging them to reassess their values and how they promote them before the next round of elections.
I truly believe the stances the CDP have are not Biblical, and I believe that we as Christians have the responsibility of pointing people to Christ and his Gospel of grace. I do not believe the CDP does this. In election campaigns, people equate what a politician believes with the policies they stand for. Therefore people in our community, it would be assumed, equate Christianity with the CDP. This is frightening. I would hate people to assume that as a Christian I believe Muslims shouldn’t live in Australia, or that migrants should all speak English. I would hate it more if they thought the Bible taught those sort of things.
If the CDP is unBiblical in their policies, yet say they are a Christian party, they need to be challenged. If their representatives are elected, and they say they will be “an outstanding Senator for a Christian voice in Federal Parliament” (Fred Nile’s quote), should we not expect them to have a Christian voice that sings to God’s tune, rather than an “Aussie values” agenda?
Do you not agree with this point?
Please remember also that you do not have to participate in this discussion or the poll. I appreciate your taking the time to rebuke me, though.

Again, context matters.

Last week saw the death of Ian Smith, the former Rhodesian PM, who was extremely racist and declared that “blacks” should never rule his land, not in a thousand years. Leaders who make such divisive, hateful remarks, fuel extremists on both sides. Hatred and violence grows. The party being attacked seeks comfort amongst those who are like them, and are more susceptible to the allure of radical ideas which seek to hurt those who have hurt them.
In communities where the “white, western Christians” glare and curse at those who are from other lands, and claim the “others” don’t have the right to be there, work there, worship in the way they want and dress how they’d like; hatred and fear grows. Extremists provide a sense of belonging for those being marginalised that their host culture does not. It is a breeding ground for terrorism. The two sides involved in the Cronulla riots gave us a glimpse of what can happen. September 11th and the Iraq War show it in vivid detail. Neither side wins, and God gets no glory.
Furthermore the Mugabe regime in Zimbabwe is the result of Ian Smith’s ideas. If we don’t want radical Islamists exercising Sharia Law in Australia, like the CDP, then history shows the answer is not to hate and vilify “the other”. The answer is to love them and build relationships, with the hope of pointing people to Christ. For then true submission to God will be exercised by both parties, and God will be glorified.

Do you see the link between racist views and the development of extremism?
Want some further reading on this? http://www.smh.com.au/text/articles/2007/11/23/1195753310734.html

Hi Jeannine et. al.

I don’t think that we can equate a policy of reducing Muslim immigration to racism.

Barnabas Fund has been constantly pointing out the impact of Islamic immigration to freedom of religion, and democracy itself, within Europe. Most recently Patrick Sookhdeo stated that by 2020 it is estimated that 47% of the residents of the EU will be Muslims with Christians steadily being reduced to “Dhimmi” status (if not legally then at least in practice).

This is not a racial issue. Most Muslims in the UK are from a Pakistani or Asian background. Those from France are generally from a North African heritage. The one binding factor is religious. And many would say that this religion seriously threatens the freedom that democracies enjoy. This is not even an issue of “Christians” vs Islam. It is an issue of Islam vs. Western liberty.

Do we need to love our Muslim neighbours? Yes! Do we need to share the Gospel with them? Of course! If the CDP has framed the debate in terms of our next-door Muslim neighbour this will not help them at all and a different approach should have been taken. But we shouldn’t be naive as to the aspirations and so far partial outcome of political Islam where significant Muslim immigration has taken place.

jeannine baird - 27 November 2007 11:10 PM

Please remember also that you do not have to participate in this discussion or the poll. I appreciate your taking the time to rebuke me, though.

Rebuke you! Oh perish the thought, I am the last person to rebuke anyone, I just think the poll is slanted, it should have at least a couple of other points I could click on that may represent what I think of the CDP and it’s views.

deleted

Neil M. Cameron - 27 November 2007 09:05 PM

Well, first of all I was trying to discern where you’re coming from. I was trying to work out what you were saying. No offense was intended Mike, I apologise for communicating poorly.

Actually the poll on this thread is quite revealing in that the “racist” and “dangerous” options have attracted only a very small amount of votes. A lot of people obviously have problems with the CDP but not to the extent that they would describe them as being horrible. The poll - for all its accuracy - seems to suggest that there is a big divide between those who see the importance of the CDP and those who question its actions.

I would very much like someone from the CDP to come to this thread and contribute. I, for one, would be very interested to hear what they say and how they respond to this discussion.

Apparently there’s a forum somewhere on the CDP website but I couldn’t access it. I was quite willing to go there and inform them of this discussion.

No, no offence Neil. Honestly Phil Southwell’s post probably puts the objections to the post and poll far more clearly than I ever could. Thanks Phil

I might add that I didn’t actually agree with any of the options wholeheartedly, but I had to choose one so I could see the poll.

If I’m not the only one, I imagine that somehow affects the poll’s validity.

I just think the poll is slanted, it should have at least a couple of other points I could click on that may represent what I think of the CDP and it’s views]

Can we edit the poll, then? What DO you think of the CDP and its views?

I would say while the CDP genuinely wants to be representative of Christian views and be important by being a Christian voice in parliament, they have a tendency to be Unbiblical in their Christian Views, and at times dangerous and divisive. :-)

I hear Fred Nile is a wonderful Christian man who wants to make a stand for Jesus, and if it is true I think that is wonderful. However, I wouldn’t vote for him, and sometimes the things he (and his party) say are cringeworthy and are a PR disaster for Christians.

http://www.frednile.com/radical-islam

Do people agree with this proclamation, and it’s outworking in the nine-point plan?