I want to ask what people do when Jehovah’s Witnesses or other folk come to the door.

I went round to see friends from church this morning, & there were two JWs chatting away. So I joined in. I became very frustrated when one accused me of coming around to outnumber them!

In general, I want to ask such people about where their confidence lies: if they have any confidence in God’s goodness and grace to them. I want to express trust in God’s completed work in the cross of Christ. I think sometimes this will need to make them doubt their organisation (one of them today couldn’t believe that ‘Jehovah’ is not a real word, for example).

One idea I just thought - so haven’t yet tried - is to ask how s/he became a JW. It would throw aside the set spiel, & probably allow me to better understand that person’s issues.

Any advice?

In my experience with JW’s I have found that many don’t know there history very well. Alot of their history seems to be hidden from them.

They are told to have nothing to do with false prophets, as it is an abomination to the Lord, but it seems to me few know about false prophecies (and I’m talking significant false prophecies) from their religion.

I remember on one occasion I asked one should they not have anything to do with false prophets and religious that prophecy falsely. This person agreed. Then when I pointed out some of their false prophecies (such as false predictions of the end of the world) they seem to be stunned that their group ever had any.

A good site to check out would be
http://www.watchman.org/watchman.htm

You might like to have a read of this article, one of their stranger false prophecies http://www.watchman.org/jw/bethsarm.htm

Walter Martin has an excellent book called “Kingdom of the Cults” in which there is an excellent chapter on the JW’s. His site is here
http://www.waltermartin.com/index.html

If you go here http://www.waltermartin.com/cults.html you can hear some of his talks on the JW. Walter Martin has always been a favourite of mine. Definitely worth the listen, especially on the cults.

1) Never invite them inside - offer to get some chairs to sit outside
2) If they will do this, ask them to let you pray that God will guide your discussion and help you all to discover more of His truth
3) When you do this, pray to the great God Jehovah - this is indeed still one of the most likely pronunciations of YHWH despite our modern preference for Yahweh
4) If they are still there, have a polite conversation in which you keep the topic on Jesus

I’m always of two minds when JWs and Mormons come to the door. Should I talk to them or is it just going to denegrate into a debate? I err on the side of saying thanks but no thanks on most occassions (not that they come into my area much)… but then after they have gone I always think that I should have talked to them.

I have a bit of a shameful story to tell with some doorknockers about a year or so back. Two guys came to the door and introduced themselves and handed me a leaflet that had something about “light-tower’ on it. Immediately I thought JW’s (especially because in my experience they never introduce themselves as JWs straight off but hand over ‘Watchtower’ material… at times quite deceptively). Anyway I apparently was in a pretty grumpy mood because I said flat out that I wasn’t interested and they tried to keep talking to me at which point I once again said ‘Not interested’ and pretty much shut the door (I know… very godly of me wasn’t it *hangs red face in shame*). Anyway, I went back to the kitchen (was cooking dinner at the time) and looked at the leaflet and realised they were from a new baptist church in a neighbouring suburb! I skimmed the leaflet and saw that it was actually something very similar to what my church would have handed out (very Jesus centred) and I realised how terribly I had acted! I know how much courage it takes for me to go doorknocking on mission and when two Christians come to my door I all but slammed it in their face!

So I raced outside (literally) and chased them down the street and apologised profusely! I think it took them a good five minutes before they believed I really was a Christian (They gave me a pop quiz!) and another 5 days before I stopped feeling like scum of the earth!

In my experience they know their arguments well. They know the answers to the “usual” Christian objections. They know by rote enough biblical material to support their arguments and are not usually willing to listen to what a Christian has to say. If they appeal to the Greek or Hebrew to support an argument, it is not because they have any real knowledge of the language, but is again merely a rote response.

Perhaps the best conversation I have had with JWs came about when I said something that completely threw them off guard. I said that God killed Jesus (the logic: God punishes sin; the punishment for sin is death; Jesus took our sins on himself and bore the punishment). I went on to argue that if Jesus is not God, God is not just because he punishes an innocent third party for our sins.

I remember someone explaining that they began conversations by agreeing to listen carefully to what the doorknockers had to say if they would then do them the same courtesy and allow them to explain what being a Christian was all about.

Finally, these people knocking on our doors are all individuals and will not always respond the same way to what we say. This means we need to be flexible and look for ways to lead the conversation. And we must remember that God is sovereign and pray that he would give us wisdom.

Oh, and sorry Warren, but I just cannot leave this alone:
[quote author="Warren Bird"]When you do this, pray to the great God Jehovah - this is indeed still one of the most likely pronunciations of YHWH despite our modern preference for Yahweh.

I must disagree, there is no chance whatsoever that “Jehovah” could have been the correct pronunciation (and even the JWs I’ve spoken to sometimes agree!).

Enkidu, your comment about throwing people off their predetermined track reminds me of the most nervous JW I have ever seen. For some reason she was alone, but she started he spiel anyway.

‘Do you think that God is behind the bad things that happen in the world?’

‘Yes, I do.’

‘(Gulp, gulp, gulp) Well ... most people say “No” to that question. In which case I’d say ...’ And off she went as if I had said no! She was not leaving those tracks that day.

And Warren, I second Enkidu’s ‘Jehovah’ comments (unless, of course, he was actually seconding mine).

[quote author="Chris Little"]And Warren, I second Enkidu’s ‘Jehovah’ comments (unless, of course, he was actually seconding mine).

Sorry, I wasn’t reading carefully enough to notice that I was actually seconding your comment, so please consider it official now!

[quote author="Enkidu Jones"]
I must disagree, there is no chance whatsoever that “Jehovah” could have been the correct pronunciation (and even the JWs I’ve spoken to sometimes agree!).

Take up the debate, then, with the cantor of the Great Synagogue in Sydney. I don’t claim to be an expert in Hebrew pronunciation, but he said at a function at St James, King St last week that the Jewish people believe that Jehovah is the most likely way the word would have sounded. He might be right, he might be wrong - but (a) he knows more about how to speak (and sing/cantillate) Hebrew than I do and (b) it wasn’t central to the point that I was making any way so I’m not fussed.

I guess my key point is that if you do take the time to speak with JW’s or Mormons, you simply keep the conversation on Jesus. Don’t argue Greek or Hebrew, don’t argue off beat topics like what they think a false prophet is, or the meaning of the two sticks in Ezekiel, just simply keep asking them the question Jesus asked His disciples - who do you say that I am? The idea is not to win debates or arguments with them, but to present the truth that Jesus Christ is Lord and God to them. Trust in God’s Spirit to work with that. Most of the time they’ll reject it, but one of the pair is often a young person who is being indoctrinated and they may be more open (if only secretly) to hearing the truth. So be gentle, so that they aren’t turned off by an aggressive, argumentative demeanour.

I have actually had an excellent encounter with the JW’s.
I received a telephone call one day from an elderly man who wanted to make an appointment to see me (as the minister of my parish), he said he was from the JW’s and i agreed to see him.
He was very well mannered and very polite, and I asked him to tell me what he had to say and I would listen and not interrupt.  Well, he took me through the Bible from Genesis to Revelation (as most JW’s do), and I listened intently for 45 minutes without interrupting him - as i said, he was a much older man than me, and I didn’t want to be treat him with disrespect.  When he had finished, he asked me...“Well, what do you think”

I said, Sir, I am really glad you took this time to explain your views on the scriptures to me, and it seems to me that what you are saying is that there is a great and terrible day of the Lord coming, just as there was in Noah’s day - and just as their was in Noah’s day, God has provided a vehicle for the salvation of his people, and that vehicle is the Jehovah’s Witness church and the WatchTower Society.

I was very pleased and said, “Yes! That’s it exactly!”

I then said, “May I speak now?” He was very gracious and agreed.  I then said that I was very badly confused about something, and it was the fact that he had spoken from the Scriptures for 45 minutes about God’s saving plans for his people, but had not mentioned the name of Jesus once.  I told him that I agreed that there was a great and terrible day of the Lord coming, and that God had indeed provided a means of salvation for his people, but I could not agree that it was a church - not an Anglican, Methodist, Catholic, Baptist or even Jehovah’s Witness church… his chosen and declared means of salvation was his ONE AND ONLY SON, Jesus, who is he Christ.  I took him through the Scriptures again, as he had done for me - Genesis to Revelation - showing him how Jesus was in fact, the great means by which all are saved, and that God’s demand is that all men should place their hope and trust in this one Son, and submit their lives to his saving authority.

When I finished, he was completely silent for quite a while.  Then he stood up, shook my hand and left.  I have never heard from him again.

I suspect that this might actually be a good way of dealing with JW’s, not debating, but letting them speak, listen, then you present the gospel as it is while they listen.  That way, at least you have the opportunity to present the gospel clearly with Jesus as the focus, not arguing about words and translations.

What do you think?

Oh! And on the topic of the word ‘Jehovah’...

My understanding of the development of this corruption of the word YAHWEH is that in the reading of the Hebrew text in ancient times, the word for the name of God was in fact YAHWEH, but in the reading, God’s name was not to be pronounced (for to say the name of God was blasphemous), so at that point in the text, when the reader came across God’s name, there was actually meant to be a silent pause.

However, because mistakes were often made, and God’s name was often accidentally said in the meeting, the ‘pointing’ (vowel sounds) around the consonants was altered to become alien - that is, an unrecognisable word in the Hebrew - Jehovah.  As such, when the reader encountered the word, he would not recognise it as an actual Word, realise it was the name of God and be silent at that point.

The problem is that when the Hebrew was tranlated into Latin and other languages, it was the corruption of Yahweh - JEHOVAH was the word rendered as God’s name.

The upshot then is.... Jehovah is how the word is rendered in some forms of the hebrew text, but it is, in fact, not a word at all.  It is a deliberate corruption of YAHWEH.

I think F. F. Bruce has the accounting of this in his The Books and the Parchments.

[quote author="Warren Bird"] Take up the debate, then, with the cantor of the Great Synagogue in Sydney.

I would be quite happy to do so. This, however, is not the thread for such a discussion.

When it comes to speaking to JWs and others, I can only agree with what Warren and Scott have said previously.

The JWs in my area must be meak mild characters. They ask me a question and I tell them my answer, and they never feel a need to pursue the discussion. Which I find very odd indeed.

Last Christmas my extended family had a do. It was one of the hottest days yet, and most of us were hovering in the lounge, slouching around watching the footy after lunch when these poor JWs came to the door. They wouldn’t have been out of their teens, and were all dressed up (suits and ties) - ridiculous attire for such a day. We invited them in and watered them. But they really had picked on the wrong household: one of my cousins is married to a Baptist pastor, another is dating a youth pastor, and the rest of us were all involved in church heavily one way or another (most actually in leadership positions one way or another - music, worship, etc etc). *hehehe* I felt really really sorry for them, that their imperative should lie so heavily on them that they should be compelled to walk the streets in the middle of a hot summer’s afternoon. And then to find a household full of bible-believers… poor boys.

Warren, let me follow-up something you wrote:

I guess my key point is that if you do take the time to speak with JW’s or Mormons, you simply keep the conversation on Jesus. Don’t argue Greek or Hebrew, don’t argue off beat topics ...

I agree completely.

Now, what is the best way ahead when they say, ‘Jesus is not God, but a God?’

I’m pulled in two ways.

Firstly, I cannot help but be hugely dismayed at the dishonour to Jesus that this is!! I want to stick up for the true divinty of my Lord. Risk here: I feel this is what JWs would expect, so they will have a fixed reply (poor, but pre-set).

Secondly, I wonder if it might be better to go the other direction & talk about what Jesus undoubtedly does. Possibly this would end by considering what this means for Jesus’ nature. To do this ‘Jesus’ work first, ontology second’ approach I might speak of: Jesus in creation, as saviour, as mediator, as judge, etc. The potential risk here is to comfort/condone their false view of Jesus, of possibly giving the impression that ‘we all agree here.’

Anyone else had ideas for this particular theological issue?

[quote author="Nunc Dimittis"]The JWs in my area must be meak mild characters. They ask me a question and I tell them my answer, and they never feel a need to pursue the discussion. Which I find very odd indeed.

Hey Nunc -

I find much the same thing.  Most of my conversations with JWs end up being four lines. 

JWs: <spiel about giving away magazine>
Me: “I’m a Christian.”
JWs: “As long as you keep reading the Bible.”
Me: “I intend to.”

And no one seems to have much to say after that.  Odd, indeed. 

SJK.

I have had 3 major experiences with JW’s.

1st. I was at Bible college, and we had just finsihed a week on the person of the Holy Spirit, when they came and I listened and they said the “Holy Spirit was like the power that powered the lamp and fan.

I asked them what Bibles they read, and I got the partner a King James Bible and we looked at all the Scriptures about how the Holy Spirit really was.

Her head was shaking yes excitedly “dear look at what the Bible does say about the Holy Spirit, his head was shaking no in denial, it got to much for him, asked me about “If we have the power to forgive” I stamped my foot hard beside his and said “If I had of stamped on your foot, or you on mine, both of us have the power to forgive each other for that sin and to accept it”

He started shaking and grabbed his wife and left very abrubtly.

2nd. I worked on a dairy farm and was in a great deal of prayer for the mornings milking, both in the spirit and in mind.

I got home for brekkie and there was a old man and a young boy talking to my wife, I listened to what they said, I asked him, “What do you believe about God healing today.”?

Which is not how I would normally approach someone, I forgot what it is we said, but when I shook hand with the young guy who was 12, his hand shake was very limp and I asked him, whats wrong with your hand shake, a young man like you should be gripping and shaking hard.

He replied, “Sorry I have had a stroke”, I put my hand on him and said “sorry, lets pray for you” and I statred to pray for him and the old guy grabbed his hand and pulled him down the driveway saying no no no no no.

3rd time. The beginng of this year in our new house, (they black banned our old house) 2 older ladies came knocking at the door, I pretended not to know much about the Bible when they asked me if I knew much, (which is true, the more I know the more I know I don’t know)

It was at the time I had badly twisted my ankle from another post, I told them I go to church, one old ladie accused me of being of the devil and sending soldiers off to war to die, and was a very bitter old lady, full of unforgiveness, I spoke of the passage of Scripture where Jesus said” if you don’t forgive then you can not be forgiven” spoke about the need for repentance, I asked them if they believed in praying to which they said “yes” I said “good will you please pray for my foot and ankle , it is in a bad way” to which they said no, “They don’t have the power to heal”

I replied, “when we pray are we not asking God to do it for us”

The long and the short of it all is that when they come walking down our street, they never come near our house.

“Oh well black banned again” sigh with regret

craig

I love talking to JW’s, especially on weekends.  I can keep 2 JW’s safely contained for hours on end by feigning interest and asking open questions.  From one such encounter I had 3 repeat visits, including the local elder.  I figure every minute they are talking to me, is a minute less damage they can do to some poor sod up the street.

[quote author="Nunc Dimittis"]Last Christmas my extended family had a do. It was one of the hottest days yet, and most of us were hovering in the lounge, slouching around watching the footy after lunch ...

??? Footy? Christmas?