I created this new thread to avoid taking another this thread off-topic.
http://your.sydneyanglicans.net/forums/viewthread/2896/P30/#75075

Anyway the point was that the original doctrine of justification by faith alone taught by Luther and in the foundational Reformation Confession--the Confession of Augsburg, maintains the Scriptural teaching on falling from Salvation--and that the Anglican Homilies with Luther, the Augsburg Confession, etc (not to mention the universal faith of the Church for 1500 years), affirms this Scriptural teaching.

Just a few examples:

Anglican Homily of Justification (cited in the 39 Articles for the expounding of the Articles’ teaching on justification):
“…we must trust only in God’s mercy, and that sacrifice which our high priest and Savior Christ Jesus, the son of God, once offered for us upon the cross, to obtain thereby God’s grace, and remission, as well of our original sin in baptism, as of all actual sin committed by us after our baptism, if we truly repent and turn unfeignedly to him again.”

“Our office is not to pass the time of this present life unfruitfully and idly after we are baptized or justified, not caring how few good works we do to the glory of God and profit of our neighbors. Much less is it our office, after that we be once made Christ’s members, to live contrary to the same, making our selves members of the devil”
http://www.geocities.com/curtis_caldwell/bk1hom03_mod.htm

[i.e. we enter into the remission of sins in Baptism and through a living, repentant faith we continually and freely participate in the remission of sins in the Blood of Christ--and if we cease from a living faith we cease to be members of Christ, and instead make ourselves “members of the devil."]

Anglican Homily on Good Works states in quoting from the Church Fathers:
“…men that are very men indeed first have life and after are nourished, so must our faith in Christ go before, and after be nourished with good works. And life may be without nourishment, but nourishment cannot be without life. A man must of necessity be nourished by good works, but first he must have faith. He that does good deeds, yet without faith he has no life. I can show a man that by faith without works lived and came to heaven, but without faith, never man had life. The thief that was hanged when Christ suffered did believe only, and the most merciful God justified him. And because no man shall say again that he lacked time to do good works, for else he would have done them, truth it is, and I will not contend therein, but this I will surely affirm, that only faith saved him. If he had lived and not regarded faith and the works thereof, he should have lost his salvation again.”
http://www.geocities.com/curtis_caldwell/bk1hom05_mod.htm

The Anglican Homily on Falling from God notes regarding those who fall from Salvation:
“…they shall be no longer of his kingdom, they shall be no longer governed by his Holy Spirit, they shall be isolated from the grace and benefits that they had, and ever might have enjoyed through Christ, they shall be deprived of the heavenly light and life which they had in Christ while they abode in him, they shall be (as they were once) as men without God in this world, or rather in worse taking.”
http://www.geocities.com/curtis_caldwell/bk1hom08_mod.htm

And the Homily against Fornication says regarding the deadly sin of fornication:
“Christ (who is the truth, and can not lie) said that evil thoughts, breaking of wedlock, whoredom, and fornication defile a man, that is to say, corrupt both the body and soul of man, and make them, of the temples of the Holy Ghost, the filthy dunghill, or dungeon of all unclean spirits, of the house of God, the dwelling place of Satan (Titus 1:15).”

[i.e. it makes those who were the temples of the Holy Spirit and part of the House of God the dwelling place of Satan.]

God Bless,
William Scott

p.s. I’ve stated this elsewhere--but it bears repeating, that the Scriptural teaching on falling from Salvation stands regardless of the position one takes regarding Baptism (and while I believe with Luther that the Creedal doctrine of Baptism is the Scriptural doctrine, I do not consider it to have the same degree of clear Scriptural support as the Scriptural teaching on falling from Salvation). Of course, it should be noted that the Anglican Articles/Homilies affirm with Augustine (and Luther) in Article 17 that the Elect Vessels of Mercy/Good Ground undoubtedly persevere to the end, even though Article 16 (and the Homilies in greater detail) speak to the reality of falling from Salvation (though Article 16 makes clear that not all falling from Salvation is the utter falling from Salvation which Heb 6, for example, warns of).

For a somewhat longer (and sobering) example on deadly sin and its effect on our Union with Christ Jesus in the Anglican Homily against Fornication:
Again he said, “Flee from whoredom, for every sin that a man commits, is external of his body, but whosoever commits whoredom sins against his own body. Do you not know that your members are the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, whom also you have of God, and you are not your own? For you are dearly bought. Glorify God in your bodies”, etc. And a little before he said, “Do you not know that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of a whore? God forbid. Do you not know, that he who cleaves to a whore is made one body with her? There shall be two in one flesh” (said he) “but he that cleaves to the Lord, is one spirit” (1 Corinthians 6:15-17). What godly words does the blessed apostle Saint Paul bring forth here, to dissuade us from, and counsel against, whoredom and all uncleanness? Your members (said he) are the temple of the Holy Ghost, which whoever defiles, God will destroy him, as said Saint Paul. If we are the temple of the Holy Ghost, how unfitting then is it to drive that Holy Spirit from us through whoredom, and in his place to set the wicked spirits of uncleanness and fornication, and to be joined, and do service to them?

You are dearly bought (said he). Therefore glorify God in your bodies. Christ, that innocent Lamb of God, has bought us from the servitude of the devil, not with corruptible gold and silver, but with his most precious and dear heart blood (1 Peter 1:18-19). To what intent? That we should fall again into our old uncleanness and abominable living? No, truly, but that we should serve him all the days of our life (Isaiah 38:20, Luke 1:74-75) in holiness and righteousness, that we should glorify him in our bodies by purity and cleanness of life. He declares also that our bodies are the members of Christ. How unseemly a thing is it then to cease to be incorporated or embodied and made one with Christ, and through whoredom to be enjoined and made all one with a whore? What greater dishonor or injury can we do to Christ than to take away from him the members of his body and to join them to whores, devils, and wicked spirits? And what more dishonor can we do to ourselves than through uncleanness to lose such excellent a dignity and freedom, and to become bondslaves, and miserable captives to the spirits of darkness? Let us therefore consider first the glory of Christ, then our estate, our dignity, and freedom, wherein God has set us by giving us his Holy Spirit, and let us valiantly defend the same against Satan, and all his crafty assaults, that Christ may be honored, and that we lose not our liberty or freedom, but still remain in one Spirit with him.
http://www.geocities.com/curtis_caldwell/bk1hom11_mod.htm

God Bless,
William Scott

And just a few examples from Luther and the Apology of Augsburg on this.

From Luther’s Smalcald Articles:
42] On the other hand, if certain sectarists would arise, some of whom are perhaps already extant, and in the time of the insurrection [of the peasants] came to my own view, holding that all those who had once received the Spirit or the forgiveness of sins, or had become believers, even though they should afterwards sin, would still remain in the faith, and such sin would not harm them, and [hence] crying thus: “Do whatever you please; if you believe, it all amounts to nothing; faith blots out all sins,” etc.—they say, besides, that if any one sins after he has received faith and the Spirit, he never truly had the Spirit and faith…

43] It is, accordingly, necessary to know and to teach that when holy men, still having and feeling original sin, also daily repenting of and striving with it, happen to fall into manifest sins, as David into adultery, murder, and blasphemy, that then faith and the Holy Ghost has departed from them [they cast out faith and the Holy Ghost]. For the Holy Ghost does not permit sin to have dominion, to gain the upper hand so as to be accomplished, but represses and restrains it so that it must not do what it wishes. But if it does what it wishes, the Holy Ghost and faith are [certainly] not present. For St. John says, 1 John 3, 9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, ... and he cannot sin. And yet it is also the truth when the same St. John says, 1, 8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
http://www.bookofconcord.org/smalcald.html#repentance

The Apology of Augsburg:
Likewise the faith of which we speak exists in repentance, i.e., it is conceived in the terrors of conscience, which feels the wrath of God against our sins, and seeks the remission of sins, and to be freed from sin. And in such terrors and other afflictions this faith ought to grow and be strengthened. Wherefore 22] it cannot exist in those who live according to the flesh who are delighted by their own lusts and obey them. Accordingly, Paul says, Rom. 8, 1: There is, therefore, now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. So, too 8, 12. 13: We are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die; but if ye, through the Spirit, do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 23] Wherefore, the faith which receives remission of sins in a heart terrified and fleeing from sin does not remain in those who obey their desires, neither does it coexist with mortal sin.*
http://www.bookofconcord.org/aug…nse/ 5_love.html

*{Called variously mortal or deadly sin. For clarification all sins are deadly/mortal and worthy of eternal damnation--but these are the sins/states of sin which fatally choke a living, justifying faith).

God Bless,
William Scott

edit: ridiculous typo--had “salvation” in the place of “damnation”:

“...For clarification all sin is worthy of eternal *damnation*...”

Hi William

Interesting stuff here.

Without wanting to take this thread back to the topic of the thread which spawned it, and as somebody who is far from well-informed on these matters, I’m interested to know how you see this informing the debate on NT Wright’s view of justification.

Tom

Tom Barrett - 25 October 2007 03:23 PM

Hi William

Interesting stuff here.

Without wanting to take this thread back to the topic of the thread which spawned it, and as somebody who is far from well-informed on these matters, I’m interested to know how you see this informing the debate on NT Wright’s view of justification.

Tom

Hello Tom and thanks for the comment.

I’ve actually never read N.T. Wright, and can claim very little real knowledge of his views (I figure that you likely know a good deal more about NT Wright’s views than myself)--so I can’t be certain how these points would inform the discussion.

I do think it’s important though that we be more familiar with the original doctrine of justification by faith alone when defending it against NT Wright’s possible (i.e. in the worst case)--contradiction or rejection of justification by faith alone.

Now from what I’ve heard of NT Wright--it sounds as if he provides some helpful Scriptural insights which are fully in accord with the original doctrine of justification by faith alone (and I’ve heard some firm adherants of justification by faith alone who apparently believe this is the case).

But it also seems that he goes too far, at the very least, in unnecessarily criticizing, sidelining, obscuring, and diminishing the great reformational insights on our justification by faith alone and the intricately related and foundational doctrine of Christ’s substitutionary atonement on our behalf. And in the worst case scenario, he goes too far--not in simply criticizing, sidelining, diminishing the centrality of, and obscuring, etc the doctrines of faith alone and Christ’s Substitutionary Atonement--but in strongly and/or even fundamentally contradicting these doctrines.

(I’m not familiar enough with his views to say whether or not this worst case scenario is in fact true).

[Of course, even if the worst case scenario is true (regardless of the degree)---I can only assume that there are many helpful Scriptural insights from Wright which do not contradict the traditional doctrine of justification by faith alone] .

God Bless.
William Scott

[some edits of typos and for clarification made]

...p.s. I’m very much a defender of the traditional doctrine of justification by faith alone (and penal substitution)--and I do want to make clear that I strongly disagree with many of the comments of NT Wright I have seen or heard of indirectly.

Though, again, it seems his views are so nuanced and complex that it is difficult based on the very little that I have seen to say whether his negative statements regarding justification by faith alone, etc and his other “confusing” or unclear statements regarding salvation, etc constitute the “worst case scenario[s]” mentioned in the previous post.

God Bless.
William Scott

Hi William

Thanks for the replies.  As I mentioned in the other thread, I’m no Wright expert, but much of what I read regarding his view on justification agrees with the material above from Luther and the homilies.  It seems the “traditional” view is not as simplistic as some would present it to be (or criticise it for being).  Everyone seems to have their own way of saying that faith without works is dead.

I found the discussion of the thief on the cross particularly interesting - in that boundary case, real faith existed without accompanying deeds by virtue of circumstance, but no doubt such circumstances are rare!

I wonder if there’s ambiguity in the phrase “faith alone” - do some people use it to mean “faith without trying to earn merit” while others hear it as “faith without obedience”?  The latter is not as silly as it might sound - I think I have heard people suggest “faith without obedience saves you, but as a saved person you must be obedient for reasons X and Y”.  But I think the former is what the bible writers are getting at.

Tom

Tom Barrett - 27 October 2007 03:24 PM

Hi William

Thanks for the replies.  As I mentioned in the other thread, I’m no Wright expert, but much of what I read regarding his view on justification agrees with the material above from Luther and the homilies.  It seems the “traditional” view is not as simplistic as some would present it to be (or criticise it for being).  Everyone seems to have their own way of saying that faith without works is dead.

I found the discussion of the thief on the cross particularly interesting - in that boundary case, real faith existed without accompanying deeds by virtue of circumstance, but no doubt such circumstances are rare!

I wonder if there’s ambiguity in the phrase “faith alone” - do some people use it to mean “faith without trying to earn merit” while others hear it as “faith without obedience”?  The latter is not as silly as it might sound - I think I have heard people suggest “faith without obedience saves you, but as a saved person you must be obedient for reasons X and Y”.  But I think the former is what the bible writers are getting at.

Tom

Thanks for the comments Tom.

I agree that there can certainly be ambiguity to people in hearing the phrase “faith alone"--though the same can be said for many other phrases used to express true doctrines. I also agree that your former description sounds at least closer to the teaching of Scripture (whereas the second, as I think you would agree, sounds rather antinomian--at least without further explanation). Anyway--my latest posts on the “If Wright were right” thread discusses the answer to this point according to the traditional doctrine of justification by faith alone.

God Bless,
William Scott

Hi William,
Thankyou for your thought provoling posts on this thread.
I wanted to read more of what you have presented, and so I went to the site you gave us for the homilies.

First I went to “A sermon on the Salvation of Mankind”. at the link you gave

http://www.geocities.com/curtis_caldwell/bk1hom03_mod.htm

I read that thought provoking sermon, but I have come to a different conclusion than what you have drawn concerning whether a person with true faith will fall away.

For after your quoting of 2 parts of that homily, you then jumped to another to build your case.

Had you followed on you would have found the following quotes, which state that those who do not persevere in good works do not have true faith.

These articles of our faith the devils believe, and so they believe all things that are written in the New and Old Testament to be true, and yet for all this faith they are but devils, remaining still in their damnable estate, lacking the very true Christian faith.

What is the true and justifying faith. For the right and true Christian faith is, not only to believe that Holy Scripture and all the aforesaid articles of our faith are true, but also to have a sure trust and confidence in God’s merciful promises, to be saved from everlasting damnation by Christ, whereof does follow a loving heart to obey his commandments. And this true Christian faith neither any devil has, nor yet any man, which in the outward profession of his mouth, and in his outward receiving of the sacraments, in coming to the Church, and in all other outward appearances, seems to be a Christian man, and yet in his living and deeds shows the contrary.

and

They that continue in evil living, have not true faith. For how can a man have this true faith, this sure trust and confidence in God, that by the merits of Christ, his sins are forgiven, and be reconciled to the favor of God, and to be partaker of the kingdom of heaven by Christ, when he lives ungodly, and denies Christ in his deeds? Surely no such ungodly man can have this faith and trust in God. For as they know Christ to be the only savior of the world, so they know also that wicked men shall not enjoy the kingdom of God. They know that God hates unrighteousness (Psalms 5:5-6), that he will destroy all those that speak untruly, that those which have done good works (which cannot be done without a lively faith in Christ) shall come forth into the resurrection of life, and those that have done evil shall come unto the resurrection of judgment, very well they know also that to them that are contentious, and to them that will not be obedient unto the truth, but will obey unrighteousness, shall come indignation, wrath, and affliction, etc.

As I read these extra quotes, it appears that that homily not only teaches assurance of salvation, but also that any who do not persevere in doing good works did not have true Christian faith, which is a thoroughly saving faith & not dependant upon works (except as a loving response to being saved). I will now endeavour to check each of your quotes, to see if there is any other counterbalancing that seems to have been overlooked.

Rob Denham.

Installment 2
Homily No 5 Of Good Works.
The homily begins by reminding the listener/hearer of what had happened before, & continues with the next step whicxh is of abiding in the vine, producing good fruits.
The quote from this homily in the opening post by William is in a section in which Augustine and Chrysostom are quoted, backing up the thrust of the Scriptures along the lines of faith without works is dead. Chryostom proposed that if the thief on the cross had survived, yet failed to have produced the fruit of good works, then he would no longer be considered as having true faith. “he should have lost his salvation again.”
Had the sermon ended there, we might have been tempted to consider that this statement was the final word. However it goes on.
The homily ends on the very positive note, that believers will persevere as Christ has promised, and not fail. This reassures, (as the book of Hebrews does) that though the warnings are dire, the person of true faith will persever not because their faith is strong or because of their mighty deeds or persistence, but because of the promises of Christ. Here is the quote from the conclusion of the homily:

And travailing continually, (during this life) thus in keeping the commandments of God (wherein stands the pure, principal, and right honor of God, and which wrought in faith, God has ordained to be the right trade and path way unto heaven) you shall not fail, as Christ has promised, to come to that blessed and everlasting life, where you shall live in glory and joy with God for ever, to whom be praise, honor and empire, for ever and ever. Amen.

Installment 3
In the homily on Falling from God, William posted a statement which implied that true Christians can fall from grace. Yet here is the end of that quote, starting with his final 5 words:

or rather in worse taking. And in summary, they shall be given into the power of the devil, which bears the rule in all them that are cast away from God, as he did in Saul and Judas (1 Samuel 15:23, 16:14), and generally in all such as work after their own wills, the children of mistrust and unbelief. Let us beware therefore (good Christian people) least that we, rejecting or casting away God’s word (by the which we obtain and retain true faith in God), are not at length cast of so far that we become as the children of unbelief, which are of two sorts, far diverse, yes, almost completely contrary, and yet both are very far from returning to God. The one kind, only weighing their sinful and detestable living with the right judgment and straightness of God’s righteousness, are so without counsel and are so comfortless (as they all necessarily are, from whom the spirit of counsel and comfort is gone) that they will not be persuaded in their hearts, but that either God can not, or else that he will not, take them again to his favor and mercy. The other, hearing the loving and large promises of God’s mercy, and so not conceiving a right faith thereof, make those promises larger than ever God did, trusting, that although they continue in their sinful and detestable lying never so long, yet that God, at the end of their life, will show his mercy upon them, and that then they will return. And both these two sorts of men are in a damnable state, and yet nevertheless, God (who does not desire the death of the wicked) has showed means whereby both (if they take heed in season) may escape (Ezekiel 18:32, 33:11).

Notice that the homily then defines those who may feel as if they have fallen (or are in danger thereof). The first are those with low self esteem who feel so unworthy because of their sin. The second are the haughty. Yet he calls on the good christians to heed the words & respond, and thus not fall away.

The homily ends with a similar note:

For of such St. Paul said, “When they shall say it is peace, there is no danger, then shall sudden destruction come upon them” (1 Thessalonians 5:3). Let us beware therefore of such naughty boldness to sin. For God, which has promised his mercy to them that are truly repentant (although it is at the latter end), has not promised to the presumptuous sinner either that he shall have long life, or that he shall have true repentance at the last end. But for that purpose has he made every man’s death uncertain, that he should not put his hope in the end, and in the mean time (to God’s high displeasure) live ungodly. Wherefore, let us follow the counsel of the wise man. Let us not delay to turn unto the Lord. Let us not put off from day to day, for suddenly shall his wrath come, and in time of vengeance he will destroy the wicked. Let us therefore turn quickly, and when we turn let us pray to God, as Hosea teaches, saying, “Forgive all our sins; receive us graciously” (Hosea 14:2). And if we turn to him with a humble and a very penitent heart, he will receive us to his favor and grace for his holy name’s sake, for his promise’s sake, for his truth and mercies’ sake, promised to all faithful believers in Jesus Christ, his only natural Son, to whom the only Savior of the world with the Father and the Holy Ghost, be all honor, glory, and power, world without end. Amen.

Once again the importance of those with a true faith hearing the call & responding in faith, will persevere, as he “will receive us to his favour and grace.”

Those with a true faith will persevere is the strong teaching of the 3 homilies examined so far.

Time calls, I will return for more.
Rob

As I read these extra quotes, it appears that that homily not only teaches assurance of salvation, but also that any who do not persevere in doing good works did not have true Christian faith, which is a thoroughly saving faith & not dependant upon works (except as a loving response to being saved). I will now endeavour to check each of your quotes, to see if there is any other counterbalancing that seems to have been overlooked.

Rob Denham.

Hello Rev. Denham--and don’t worry--I have not overlooked these portions of the Homilies which you have quoted. But thanks for quoting more of the many excellent statements in the Homiliy of Justification.

Anyway--the quotes certainly don’t contradict the portions of the Homily of Justification which I had quoted previously or the many other statements of the Homilies on the issue of falling from Salvation---the Homily is just too small to contradict itself ;-)

In fact, the quotes you have provided are the very same sentiments Luther expressed on the issue--and he, as the Homilies, affirmed the Scriptural teaching of falling from Salvation in no uncertain terms.

Because of the common modern belief that Salvation cannot be lost the phrases you quoted in the Homilies (as well as the many similar statements by Luther, etc) can sound like they support the belief that Salvation cannot be lost. But simply put--they are more nuanced than this--and are understood in the context of the statements the Homily makes elsewhere regarding the historic Christian and Scriptural faith that falling from Salvation is a reality.

As for assurance--the Homily (as Luther) certainly taught the full assurance of final Salvation (and thus going to heaven). The teaching that falling from Salvation is possible does not remove the complete, full, and true assurance that one is the Elect Good Ground and will receive Final Salvation (and thus go to heaven)---in fact the innovative belief that Salvation cannot be lost can actually weaken assurance (as I can explain in greater detail later if need be).

The Homily likewise teaches with Luther, Apology of Augsburg, Augustine, etc (all of whom affirm with the Homilies (as the whole Church for 1500 years which historic faith the Homily professes to follow on the doctrine of justification by faith alone--as I can quote later)--namely, that those who cease from a living faith cease to be members of Christ and make themselves members of the devil)

...that those which have done good works (which cannot be done without a lively faith in Christ) shall come forth into the resurrection of life, and those that have done evil shall come unto the resurrection of judgment, very well they know also that to them that are contentious, and to them that will not be obedient unto the truth, but will obey unrighteousness, shall come indignation, wrath, and affliction” {The Homilies’ paraphrase of Rom 2:6-8 }

The Homily is also stating the doctrine of Luther, etc on the nature of a true, living, and justifying faith--namely that no devil has it, and that no man who in his living and deeds shows contrary fruit has this saving faith (namely any man who is in the bond of “deadly/mortal sin” has merely a dead, false faith and not a true, living, and justifying faith):

What is the true and justifying faith. For the right and true Christian faith is, not only to believe that Holy Scripture and all the aforesaid articles of our faith are true, but also to have a sure trust and confidence in God’s merciful promises, to be saved from everlasting damnation by Christ, whereof does follow a loving heart to obey his commandments. And this true Christian faith neither any devil has, nor yet any man, which in the outward profession of his mouth, and in his outward receiving of the sacraments, in coming to the Church, and in all other outward appearances, seems to be a Christian man, and yet in his living and deeds shows the contrary.

[Although it doesn’t effect the teaching of the Homilies--I should note that the underlined portion--namely the statement “What is the true and justifying faith” is not part of the Homiliy--but was added by the person making the modernized spelling edition which I linked to].

Thanks again for the comments and God Bless,
William Scott

Hello again Rob--I didn’t realize that you had posted another three posts since the time I first looked.

Anyway--again, excellent quotes Rob--in fact, to my knowledge I have given most if not all these quotes in your last three posts previously on Sydney Anglican, when discussing the doctrine of justification by faith alone (and the issue of falling from Salvation) as I am discussing in this thread.

So--the point is that all of the quotes you have provided are the same teaching as Luther, Augustine, etc taught on the matter--and in no ways contradict the reality of falling from Salvation (which both Luther and Augustine believed firmly in and which the Homilies explicitly confess).

The first quote speaks to the fact that those who persevere/continue in the Way of God’s Commandments (i.e. the path of a living faith) will undoubtedly come to everlasting life--as Luther, Augustine, etc taught on the matter.

The Second quote speaks to the reality that all who turn to the Lord--even if they fall from Salvation will be restored in His great mercy if they turn to Him again. Thus, the Homiliy encourages people to turn to the Lord so that they may continue in His grace and not be cast away from Salvation as occurs in all who turn from Him (as the Homiliy noted earlier).

Anyway--thanks again for the comments Rob.

God Bless,
William Scott

p.s. I’ll go through the Homilies, incl. the excellent quotes you have provided in greater detail later if need be.

Robert Denham - 28 October 2007 03:51 PM

Time calls, I will return for more.
Rob

Keep bringing it on Robert--we have only skimmed the surface on this thread of the many great statements in the Homilies on assurance of final salvation, the nature of a living, saving faith, and the reality of falling from Salvation ;-)

God Bless,
William Scott

A quick response William,

When you say words like Luther, the homilies etc all teach the falling away from faith, are you saying that the possibility is a reality for anyone without true faith, whereas the person with a genuine faith will always respond to the warnings & stay faithful?

If that is what you are saying, then I have no qualms about that. However, is that what you are saying?or is there more? or is it more nuanced than that?

Rob.