Hooray for Colin Chapman! Somebody who is clearly passionate and proactive about the fact that Jesus died for ALL NATIONS! Sometimes I get the feeling that many would prefer this to not be the case. We’d prefer salvation to be limited to white Westerners.
Certainly, in our allowing ourselves to succumb to the fearmongering of the Immigration Department, and even that of the Christian Democratic Party, about the potential loss of our Judeo-Christian heritage (what a joke! Our heritage is that at the last minute some bright spark remembered to put a minister on the 1st Fleet. Clearly, God has been sovereign), we fail to see Muslims as fellow human beings; created by God to be in relationship with him, and just as in need, and worthy of, salvation as we are.
If we take evangelism seriously, and we must, then we are compelled to obey Jesus’ command to make disciples of all nations. It’s our duty and privilege to build bridges to creating true friendships with people of all faiths, in the hope of playing our part of pointing them to Jesus in word and deed.
This sounds like an exciting course. Can’t wait for the resources from CMS.

I suggest a word of caution when thinking about Islam and Muslims.

I speak as someone who organised a 2 day conference in Melbourne a year ago with Patrick Soohkdeo speaking on the challenge of Islam and also as someone who has engaged in some serious theological dialogue with Muslims, and despite the difficulties plan to continue doing so.

However I think we would be very foolish to think “let as many Muslims come to Australia as wish to and we will evangelise them”! Foolish and presumptuous.

I am all in favour of witnessing to Muslims through introducing them to the Jesus of the Bible and more power to Colin Chapman, Bruce Hall and Moore College for focussing on this.

In relation to the CDP’s call to a halt to Muslim immigration, I think it is disappointing to hear such calls for the halting of immigration for any group of people. Since the scrapping of the White Australia policy in 1966 Australia has had an open door policy to immigration regardless of racial origins and religious beliefs. Millions of people have come from many different backgrounds to make a better life in Australia, something all Australians should be proud of. What has made this immigration successful is that those coming have basically fitted into the Australian way of life, making adjustments, but also making their own contribution to Australian culture.

Muslim immigration however poses certain difficulties, because the defining characteristic of such people is not so much country of origin, which can be quite varied but their classification according to religion: Islam

The issue with Islam, unlike Christianity, the dominant religion in Australia (i’m thinking here as much of historical impact), is that it is more than a religion, it is in fact a political ideology. In Islam there is no division between “church and state”. Islamic law is very different to the law established in Western democracies. We know from Europe with its much higher population of Muslims that there is a considerable push to establish sharia law in European countries by their Muslim populations, much to the consternation of native European populations. We even see the beginnings of this in Australia with dairy and meat products being produced locally to meet Halal requirements.

Unlike the gradual peaceful conversion of the Roman Empire to Christianity in the first few centuries after the death of Christ, the early history of Islam was bathed in blood, the blood of the conquered people of the time, often Christians. Even today Christians in Muslim countries live as dhimmis, second class citizens and continue to be persecuted. The 29th October will be the second anniversary of the beheading of three Christian girls on the way to their school in Sulawesi, Indonesia by Islamic militants, and their story is but one of many. Whilst many Muslims claim their religion is moderate and peaceful, the unfortunate fact is that the militants find justification in their Islamic Scriptures and we know from surveys conducted in European countries, the militants are widely supported, if only tacitly, within the Muslim population.

Australians already have had their freedoms curtailed through anti terrorism legislation brought about by the threat of attack from Islamic militants within Australia.

Therefore whilst calls to limit the immigration of any people group into Australia are highly regrettable, they are understandable in the case of Muslims, even while we must acknowledge that Muslims have by and large only come to Australia to escape conditions that were so awful in their own countries.

I think the Government would be wise for the time being not to open up Australia to large scale immigration from the Middle East though I think an exception should be made for the hundreds of thousands of Christians forced to flee Iraq on account of persecution in Iraq by Sunni and Shia Muslims alike. I think observing what happens in Europe over the next 5-10 years will be pivotal for determining whether Muslims can be accommodated in Western democracies. We can have no objection to Islam seeking to win converts to Islam through evangelism. However to demand that the Law and Institutions of our nation be changed to accommodate Muslim sensitivities should be stoutly resisted by all Australians including Muslims themselves.

David Palmer

I think all people coming to Australia to live ( muslim or otherwise) should be made aware of Our Christian Heritage

Christianity, gave the world the principles of social justice, equality, freedom and democracy, and such institutions as schools, hospitals, orphanages, and the Red Cross, the world’s greatest charities, foreign aid missions.

Christianity introduced such humanitarian concepts as abolition of slavery, abolition of slums, reduction of poverty, prison reform, abolition of cruelty to animals and abolition of child labour, unsafe factories and long working hours. No other religion has such a record of humanitarian social justice.

Christianity, gave the world such high principles as “duty of care” on which most secular laws are founded, and the notion of public liability, protection of the innocent, humane treatment of prisoners, and the dignity of human life.

Christianity had the world’s first anti-discrimination, anti-racism and Human Rights laws (Sinai Covenant)

Christianity produced some of the greatest thinkers, scientists, artists, writers, and musicians in human history. Former President of the International Court of Justice at the Hague, Max Huber, was a Christian.

Christianity gave the world some of the greatest explorers, and opened up the vast resources of the globe to free trade, industry and employment, including; James Cook, Charles Sturt, Abel Tasman, De Quiros, Van Diemen, Joseph Banks and Mathew Flinders.

The government has been speaking about a quiz which people need to pass to become citizens. Surely Australia is based on Christianity, and any quiz which does not have a section about this faith is lacking badly.

But being politically correct, seems to dominate our decisions, because of a militant left leaning, atheistic vocal public service, and media. Pity.

Jeannine, I suspect you would enjoy the book Mission to Islam and Beyond - A Practical Theology of Mission - download it free from Answering Islam

Surely Australia is based on Christianity

I don’t think this is historically correct. To use the term ‘based’ is very problematic.

Although Christianity is one of the strands that has influenced Australia’s history is not the only one - liberalism, socialism and social-Darwinism also played fairly key parts in Australia’s formation.

A number of the Australian colonies were founded explicitly as enlightenment humanist experiments. No colony was ‘founded’ by any church or for religious reasons (like in the US).. although it is true that Wilberforce and the evangelicals had some hand in the founding of NSW.

The history of organised (’militant’) secularism in Australia goes back to the 1850s and in particular the 1870s education debates

Indeed, one of Australia’s key founding fathers was the athiest secularist Henry Higgins.. which explains why their are no religious tests in the Australian constitution.... this was Higgins’ legacy.

some bright spark remembered to put a minister on the 1st Fleet.

I myself am torn between two impotant principles:  firstly that this is God’s country, not ours and we have a biblical imperative to welcome the stranger to our shores, just as we were welcomed; but secondly, that God has blessed us with a 200 year old tradition of peaceful constitutional evolution, including over 150 years of mass participatory democracy:  sociologists are increasingly recognising that societies like ours depend on a broad commitment to shared values.  Must we tolerate people who will not tolerate us?

Jeremy Halcrow, our culture and hisorical links to England do not make us Hindu, Buddhist, Moslem, Animist, Roman Catholic, Voodoo, or whatever.

If anything, we have a Christian heritage in Australia, despite why, or how we were founded. This is despite the number of non-Christians that did, or do live in this land. Our aspirations are based on a Judeo-Christian Western culture.

It is this base heritage that I speak of. We have the Lord’s Prayer said in Parliament, for example to proclaim our base beliefs.

We should share this heritage with newcomers to Australia. That is what I believe. We should also guard, as Christians, against our country being diverted from our Christian heritage.

I think Muslims, in particular, could present such a threat, if their numbers were to become dominant. They aggressively resent Christian theology, and persecute Christians in many Islamic countries.

Other non-Christians should have our beliefs explained more clearly to them as well. These people do not understand how they are able to enjoy such a great place to live in because of centuries of Christian endeavour by devoted men and women for their benefit.

Ken, could you define what Christian heritage means (your understanding, anyway), and why you see it as so valuable?

It seems to be quite an anomoly to say we have a Christian heritage despite why or how we were founded. I would like you to expand on that thought as well if you could.

Cheers

Geoff

If anything, we have a Christian heritage in Australia,

Yes, of course. But this is not what you said the first time around.

To say Australia has a Chistian heritage is very different to saying ‘Australia is based on Christianity’.

Australia also has a liberal and secular heritage which has nothing to do with Christianity.

hmmm Ken.... Protestant heritage or Christian heritage???? :)

I hope you are not excluding the Irish Catholics from Austalia’s history!!

BTW its links to ‘Britain’ not ‘England’ which is key in Australia’s development
Most significantly, The Church of England was never established.

You see non-demonational, secular policies developed to reflect the Presbyterian (Scots), Methodist (Welsh), Anglican (English) and Catholic (Irish) make-up of the British settlers.... yes its a ‘Christian heritage’ in one sense but way more complicated than you are making out.

As a result non-denominational activities [like the Lord’s prayer in parliament] were acceptable in Australia.

One thing I find frustrating about the Christian heritage movement is the gloss it puts over the divisions and non-Christian influences of the past. This can make us either over-triumphalist or overly-depressed about the present.

I note, for example, that the Australian Christian Lobby promotes Alfred Deakin as a champion of our Christian heritage. But Deakin was a spiritualist as a young man who believed he was a medium. He later joined the Theosophists (the ancestor of today’s New Age) before hooking up with the Rev Charles Strong (a unitarian, 19th century version of Bishop John Spong).

Using your same logic Ken, I could mount a fairly strong argument (not that I want to) that Australia has a ‘New Age pagan heritage’

Sometimes these attempts to claim the past for Christianity can end up looking a bit silly.

What I think we can agree on Ken is that Australia is part of ‘Western’ civilization, as opposed to Islamic or Chinese civilization. Western Civilization has developed from three world views:

a. Christian
b. Greco-Roman / classical
c. Enlightenment (liberal-secular)

Australian culture does not, and never has, perfectly mirrored biblical Christianity.

[edit for clarity]

Colin Chapman and Patrick Sookhdeo don’t exactly sing off the same hymnsheet, and I’m not sure what fireworks would have erupted at 2006 CMS summerschool if they were on the stage at the same time.

Chapman seemed willing to distort scripture in an attempt to find common ground between Christianity and Islam as a basis for mission. At one point he said that John 14:6 “No one comes to the Father except through me” could be better translated “No one can know God as Father except through me” and that Muslims may actually be able to know God, but just not as Father (whatever this means) [I think it was at the EFAC lunchtime meeting that he said this]. If this isn’t undermining the work of Jesus well then I don’t know what is. I must say that I’m surprised that Moore College has asked him to come.

Jeremy, we are arguing at cross purposes, I think. You interpret what I say in your own fashion, to suit your particular viewpoint, and argument.

You said “Australian culture does not, and never has, perfectly mirrored biblical Christianity.” We agree on this point, I never said it did, really.

But I said our culture was based on a Christian society base, although it is true that many in our society are not Christian. Only about 5% are really Christian, but they have a big influence today, and had more of an influence in prior times.

PS: It is an old saying - The English gave us the laws, the Scottish gave us the financial side, and the Irish gave us the songs.

My main point was that Muslim people do not accept the British Christian tradition, and never will. They oppose our tradition, and will degrade our society like they have in other parts of the world.

Mr Halcrow writes the Church of England was never estalbished in Australia. It is Sir Owen Dixon’s view expressed in Wylde v Attorney General of NSW http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/HCA/1948/39.html?query=^wylde that it was at least in NSW. Also, the Colonial authority in NSW at least paid the Anglican chaplains and the Archdeacon ( established as a corporation sole with perpetual succession) was the senior member of the Legislative Council till about 1848 and until sometime after Bishop Broughton came here, the Anglican church controlled the education system through the Church and Schools Corporation of which firstly Archdeacon Scott and then Bp Broughton was the Chairman

Chapman seemed willing to distort scripture in an attempt to find common ground between Christianity and Islam as a basis for mission. At one point he said that John 14:6 “No one comes to the Father except through me” could be better translated “No one can know God as Father except through me” and that Muslims may actually be able to know God, but just not as Father (whatever this means)

I think this is a serious charge by Phillip Southwell and needs a response by the powers that be.

Whilst Colin Chapman may be able to help train people for evangelism amongst Muslims, I would be suggesting that is about as far as it should go. I thank God for Sookhdeo and Barnabas Fund.

Just to clarify. If my memory serves me right the comments were made at a lecture by Colin Chapman organised by EFAC on one afternoon of Summer school 2006. During the lecture Colin alluded to this understanding of John 14:6. Numerous diocesan clergy were present and when someone asked him a question on this verse during question time he repeated this view, I think with greater clarity. If I remember correctly it was Glenn Davies who chaired the meeting, and distanced himself from some views expressed when he rounded up proceedings.

I think an announcement was made that copies of the talk would be available (I’m not sure whether from CMS or EFAC) so this should be easy enough to confirm. Unfortunately I cannot be more precise - I threw out my notes of the meeting when we moved 10 months ago.

Andrew Tilsley - 29 August 2007 10:28 AM

I’m reminded of the recent (Sydney Anglicans?) news item on the (Lutheren?) church in Europe wanting to call God ‘Allah’ in an attempt to build relationships.

Hi Andrew,
it was a discussion here from an ABC news item that I read here.

It was a Roman Catholic Bishop.

Cheers,
Andrew