Well sure, [edit: responding to someone!] call me a pedant, call me Nigel, but my view is that those who reject God as revealed in his word and end in the fires of eternal damnation don’t know him—or about him—in any sense worth speaking about.

This passage in 2 Thessalonians is typical:

2Th. 1:5   This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.  9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.  11 To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

That’s the way the Bible normally speaks too, isn’t it? Knowledge and obedience are, in the case of God, treated as synonymous.

One might also refer to Mark 4:1-12, Acts 28:26-17.

Those under judgment don’t know God in the sense of relationship / intimacy. This is obvious in that they disobey the gospel. ie they have no faith and no repentance. That doesn’t mean that they knew nothing about God. They may in fact have been well taught and have all the answers.

So I still don’t see a problem with distinguishing between knowledge of and knowledge about.

BTW Gordon, if you are not a SydAng ‘pillar’, by the number of posts you have accumulated, you must be the undisputed ‘posta boy’ of SydAng. Congratulations!

Gordon Cheng - 09 August 2007 01:57 PM

...those who reject God as revealed in his word and end in the fires of eternal damnation don’t know him—or about him—in any sense worth speaking about.

True.

Scott Tarrant - 09 August 2007 02:24 PM

BTW Gordon, if you are not a SydAng ‘pillar’, by the number of posts you have accumulated, you must be the undisputed ‘posta boy’ of SydAng. Congratulations!

From pill-er to post in one fell swoop.

From pill-er to post in one fell swoop.

Gordon,

That quip is worthy of an Oscar !  Great stuff.

Cheers’ Kevin

Gordon Cheng - 09 August 2007 01:31 PM

So you took a poll to find out if I’m a piller. Does that make you a poller?

I never took a poll? Are you taking pills?

Gordon Cheng - 09 August 2007 01:57 PM

That’s the way the Bible normally speaks too, isn’t it? Knowledge and obedience are, in the case of God, treated as synonymous.

No, I don’t think they are treated as synonymous, but of course they go hand in hand in the lives of those being saved by God’s grace.

Afternoon, fellas, from an honorary guy.

I’m in the “knowing God” is different from “knowing about God” camp, just as I know something about this pillar-piller-pillow(??), Gordon Cheng. I’ve read some of his posts, letters to the editor in the SMH and parts of his blog, so I know something about him, but I’ve never met said pillow (does this mean he’s fluffy?) face to face or spoken/communicated one on one with him. Know about him - yep. Know him? Not really.

Far more comforting to me, though (re God) is that He knows me. Phew.

Lisa Hall - 09 August 2007 05:28 PM

Afternoon, fellas, from an honorary guy.

G’day mate.

I’m in the “knowing God” is different from “knowing about God” camp, just as I know something about this pillar-piller-pillow(??), Gordon Cheng. I’ve read some of his posts, letters to the editor in the SMH and parts of his blog, so I know something about him, but I’ve never met said pillow (does this mean he’s fluffy?) face to face or spoken/communicated one on one with him. Know about him - yep. Know him? Not really.

Actually, you do know me somewhat through my words, unless I’m lying! Or worse than I thought at communicating. Because it really is me that is being expressed here, and the knowledge you are gaining is genuine not pretended.

The difference—and it is an extremely important difference, is that God not only speaks to us but by his Spirit indwells us.

If his Spirit does not indwell us, then the Bible tells me that we sinfully reject our knowledge of God. So not only don’t we know him, we don’t even know about him.

Far more comforting to me, though (re God) is that He knows me. Phew.

Indeed! And that has to do with his indwelling Spirit, too.

Actually, you do know me somewhat through my words, unless I’m lying! Or worse than I thought at communicating. Because it really is me that is being expressed here, and the knowledge you are gaining is genuine not pretended

Glad to hear you’re a truthful pillar! I would expect nothing less.

If his Spirit does not indwell us, then the Bible tells me that we sinfully reject our knowledge of God. So not only don’t we know him, we don’t even know about him.

So is what you’re saying that our spiritual blindness, which we are both born with and actively embrace, prevents us from knowing the truth about God until he reveals himself to us by his Spirit? If so, I see what you mean (thanks to God!!!).

If this is the case then does the Romans 1 passage then mean that knowledge about God would be clear BUT for our sinfulness which makes true knowledge about God impossible to discern? This certainly fits in with a “grace alone” understanding of salvation - my “figuring out who God is” has nothing to do with my salvation because my sin makes it impossible for me, tarnished by sin to recognise and/or understand a holy God.

Maybe I need to pull “Knowing God” off my bookshelf and re-acquaint myself with Packer’s “knowing about” vs “knowing” argument (I think it’s in there somewhere...)

BTW, Gordo, if you’re keen for evangelism, etc and being salt in your community, does this make you a pillar of salt? Hope not.

BTW, Gordo, if you’re keen for evangelism, etc and being salt in your community, does this make you a pillar of salt? Hope not.

Hi Lisa,

That ‘pillar of salt’ quip earns you a well deserved Oscar as well. Congratulations on behalf of the Academy.

Cheers, Kevin

The name ‘Oscar’ is already taken. Let’s call them Kevins, in honour of their inventor!

Wow! A Kevin! Hmmm… an acceptance speech

I’d just like to, wow, thank everyone who helped me come up with that quip - most importantly Monty Python, the Goons and my brothers. I just really also wanna thank Mom, Dad and all the little guys and (music starts playing in the background) I just really wanna dedicate this to Kevin - a true minister of mirth and frivolity.

(Exits stage left)

In all seriousness, we need to ensure we treat this topic with much care.

John warns us in his letters to the seven churches in the book of Revelation that indeed one can think they are a Christian and doing Gods will, and in relationship with him - when instead God is calling them to repentance and to come back to him in right relationship.