I remember someone before asking whether someone else denied there was an apocalyptic genre in the Bible. What was meant by that? Because honestly I don’t really see a distinct genre.

(I’ll try and find the quote)

Here it is, down the very bottom:
http://your.sydneyanglicans.net/forums/viewthread/2568/P135/#67589

Could I ask you a question?
Do you recognise that there is a genre of literature in the Bible that we can identify as ‘apocalyptic’?

The book of Revelation? But I imagine that was the answer you were after, and hence the discussion begins! :-)

But I’m not the man for this discussion. Nevertheless, it sure has been nice talking to you

Geoff

I don’t think Revelations consists of any special genre.

Hmm, I found this on Wikipedia

The formulas of apocalyptic literature are the marks of a literary form; for we cannot suppose that the writers experienced the voluminous and detailed visions we find in their books. On the other hand the emotional value of the visions is to some extent guaranteed by the writer’s intense earnestness and by his manifest belief in the divine origin of his message. But the difficulty of regarding the visions as actual experiences, or as in any sense actual, is intensified, when full account is taken of the artifices of the writer; for the major part of his visions consists of what is to him really past history dressed up in the guise of prediction. Moreover, the writer no doubt intended that his reader should take the accuracy of those events already accomplished to be a guarantee for the accuracy of that which was still unrealized. How, then, it may well be asked, can this be consistent with reality of visionary experience? Are we not obliged to assume that the visions are a literary invention and nothing more?

However we may explain the inconsistency, we are precluded by the moral earnestness of the writer from assuming the visions to be pure inventions. But the inconsistency has in part been explained by Gunkel, who has rightly emphasized that the writer did not freely invent his materials but derived them in the main from tradition, as he held that these mysterious traditions of his people were, if rightly expounded, forecasts of the time to come. Furthermore, the visionary who is found at most periods of great spiritual excitement was forced by the prejudice of his time, which refused to acknowledge any inspiration in the present, to ascribe his visionary experiences and reinterpretations of the mysterious traditions of his people to some heroic figure of the past. Moreover, there will always be a difficulty in determining what belongs to his actual vision and what to the literary skill or free invention of the author, seeing that the visionary must be dependent on memory and past experience for the forms and much of the matter of the actual vision.

Seems like its distinctions from a simple visionary description are based on un-Christian beliefs.

Hi Dannii

The preterist is back!

...there is no apocalyptic literature in the Bible. Apocalypticism, originally a form of Jewish gnosticism, taught that the world is coming to an end and therefore we should retreat and wait for deliverance. (Apocalypticism is one of the major heresies of American evangelicalism, of course.)

The prophetic passages of the Bible teach the opposite. They always teach that the world is coming to a new beginning, and therefore we must get to work.

James B. Jordan
www.biblicalhorizons.com

[quote author="Michael Bull"]...there is no apocalyptic literature in the Bible. Apocalypticism, originally a form of Jewish gnosticism, taught that the world is coming to an end and therefore we should retreat and wait for deliverance. (Apocalypticism is one of the major heresies of American evangelicalism, of course.)

The prophetic passages of the Bible teach the opposite. They always teach that the world is coming to a new beginning, and therefore we must get to work.

James B. Jordan
www.biblicalhorizons.com

This represents a confusion between apocalyptic literature as a literary genre and apocalypticism as a set of beliefs about the future course of world history.

Martin (Enkidu) Shields - 26 July 2007 01:49 AM

This represents a confusion between apocalyptic literature as a literary genre and apocalypticism as a set of beliefs about the future course of world history.

Hi Martin

Apolcalyptic literature is about the imminent end of the world. Apocalypticism is a belief that the world will end very soon. Is there a difference? Or are the people who wrote the literature not the ones who believed it?

Jordan’s point is that no Bible passages predict a “soon” end of the world. The prophetic passages predict decreation and recreation, with a moral imperative to be holy, hold fast to the truth, and wait for a new world. I think this is what distinguishes the Bible from Jewish apocalyptic, so it transcends that genre.

Regards,
Mike

[quote author="Michael Bull"]Apolcalyptic literature is about the imminent end of the world. Apocalypticism is a belief that the world will end very soon. Is there a difference? Or are the people who wrote the literature not the ones who believed it?

I disagree. As a genre, apocalyptic literature does not necessarily relate to the imminent end of the world. Rather, it is characterised by reports of detailed symbolic visions, the use of symbolic numbers, gematria, and other things. There is apocalyptic literature in the OT as well as the NT, and the OT literature in particular is not all tied to the end of the world. As such, there is a very real difference between apocalyptic literature and apocalypticism.

I agree Mr Jones(I find that a funny title… Enkers!) I agree Enkers.
There is a strong tradition in protestant circles, especially deriving fromthe midto late 1800’s that links apocoplyptic literature to “end times” but the connection is not a necessary one.

I have an original copy of “Daniel and the Revelation” (an old 7th Day Addie work, still in print. And its companion volume “Readings for the Home Circle” both were, I think very representative of the millieu of imminent end times stuff.
BTW, in those volumes the “Turks” were the primary threat.ie; Ottoman Empire.
Personally I think they were wrong… it’s either Microsoft or Abba!

Martin (Enkidu) Shields - 26 July 2007 10:24 AM

Apocalyptic literature does not necessarily relate to the imminent end of the world. Rather, it is characterised by reports of detailed symbolic visions, the use of symbolic numbers, gematria, and other things. There is apocalyptic literature in the OT as well as the NT, and the OT literature in particular is not all tied to the end of the world. As such, there is a very real difference between apocalyptic literature and apocalypticism.

Dear Martin

It seems there is also a broader definition of apocalyptic which ignores the ‘imminence’ and moral imperatives, but retains the symbolic character and the doom and gloom. This definition is more about the packaging and less about the contents, which was the Jewish apocalyptic error.

My point was that the non-canonical Jewish apocalyptic literature drew on the canonical visions, plus a lot of imagination, speculation and complicated math, which is a typical human error. They got so caught up in the ‘mysteries’ vehicle that they overlooked the obvious moral exhortations in the canonical visions. The Pharisees did the same thing with the Law, ignoring justice and mercy, and instead tithing kitchen herbs.

The canonical visions are visions to be sure, but the symbolic language they use draws on previous biblical history, until we arrive at Revelation, which alludes to every single book in the Old Testament. The only way we can interpret Revelation is to have all of the Old Testament ‘flowing in our veins’. Then I believe it is clear that Revelation is a prediction of the imminent end of the Old Covenant, not the New, as God ‘shakes the world’ so that only the unshakeable things may remain, the kingdom of Christ. As such, it is not about the end of the world, but the end of the old creation and the beginning of the new. So it transcends the definition created by errant Jewish apocalyptic (however interesting that may be) and is not so much an independent genre because its symbols are all drawn from historical narrative.

The apocalypticists (what a word) of the 1800’s down to Tim Lahaye miss the fact that although the Bible visions occasionally hint at far off events, the body of the warnings concern imminent judgment and restoration. This includes Revelation. Imminence to the date of writing is the key.

“...things which must shortly take place.” Rev 1:1
“...Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book for the time is at hand.” Rev 22:10

We are probably splitting hairs, but I would lay it out like this:

1 The genre was defined by an errant Jewish tradition (Jewish fables) which was rightly not included the canon.

2 The Biblical visions ride on the historical narratives and cannot be divorced from them, nor interpreted without thorough knowledge of them. When we want to identify the harlot, we look to the Old Testament.

3 The Biblical visions go far beyond the boundaries of the genre as defined in #1, and are always given to warn people of imminent events, and with a moral imperative. Revelation was given to persecuted Christians to encourage them, to show them that the current world-shaking events were actually a result of the imminent world-rule of Christ at the destruction of the temple, and that they would be over soon. “Hold fast what you have till I come.”

4 Although there are obvious differences in genre throughout Scripture, the books are so organically integrated that carving them up and putting them into tidy, isolated boxes is not wise, especially when the genre is defined by an errant offshoot, or we label historical narrative as something else to sidestep unwanted implications. Hermeneutic scaffolding is helpful but can also get in the way, or be used to undermine biblical authority.

Labelling Revelation ‘apocalyptic’ is a bit like labelling Passion of the Christ a splatter movie.

Regards,
Mike

Martin (Enkidu) Shields - 26 July 2007 10:24 AM

As a genre, apocalyptic literature does not necessarily relate to the imminent end of the world.

Yes, eg. there’s lots about Revelation that I don’t understand, but I’ve always assumed as I read it that it dealt for the most part with present events seen from a heavenly perspective. This was without having read commentaries or heard sermons on it, except for a film our school ISCF showed with some rather loopy end-times prophecies.

Even at the time I thought it seemed odd that 20 centuries of Christian history would have come and gone, and you would have a whole book of the Bible that pretty much wasn’t relevant to anything at all until you got to 1975. Then, all of a sudden, you were supposed to take interest in dating a coming judgement that even Jesus didn’t know the timing of (Mark 13:32).

[quote author="Michael Bull"]1 The genre was defined by an errant Jewish tradition (Jewish fables) which was rightly not included the canon.

2 The Biblical visions ride on the historical narratives and cannot be divorced from them, nor interpreted without thorough knowledge of them. When we want to identify the harlot, we look to the Old Testament.

3 The Biblical visions go far beyond the boundaries of the genre as defined in #1, and are always given to warn people of imminent events, and with a moral imperative. Revelation was given to persecuted Christians to encourage them, to show them that the current world-shaking events were actually a result of the imminent world-rule of Christ at the destruction of the temple, and that they would be over soon. “Hold fast what you have till I come.”

If you’re trying to argue that there are no examples of apocalyptic literature in the Bible, then you are welcome to do so, but you need to realise that you are consequently redefining the term and using it in a way no-one else uses it (since I don’t know of any biblical scholar who would deny that there is apocalyptic literature in the Bible). You would be better off dividing the genre into sub-genres (perhaps “biblical apocalyptic literature” and something different). Continuing to use the term will otherwise just result in confusion!

Martin, I think you are right. My argument is that we are defining the inspired visions with a term derived from an apocryphal, limited and often mistaken genre.

Remembering back when I looked at Revelation in a bible study group, one point I think that was discussed was that it was written in an “apocyliptic"style for different reasons.

One reason was because of the persecution of Christians by the Romans, under Nero.

Hence much of it was written in coded language for the insiders to understand. It is a book that speaks of the second coming of Jesus?

For those who would like to know more, maybe this link helps:

Revelation - genre

HOW TO READ REVELATION:

Because of intricate and unusual symbolic language, the Book of Revelation is hard for modern people to read. They are not used to this kind of literature.
Not so for people in the ancient world who would have been more accustomed to the complex nature of apocalyptic literature. The very fact that an apocalypse was a common type of literature meant that it followed certain conventions of style, and people knew more what to expect from it.
Because there were many other examples of apocalyptic writing, these conventions would have seemed less strange and cryptic.
Also, apocalyptic literature was almost always a kind of literature for “insiders,” that is to say, it was written for people who already knew something of the situation and of the symbols that were used to portray it.
So, for the original audience of the Revelation of John, all these strange scenes would have been immediately intelligible.
What the modern reader or biblical scholar has to do is to try to read the text with “ancient eyes,” by being informed about the way the literature worked and the situation out of which it came.

Hi Ken

I agree with your post. I would add that there is nothing in Revelation that isn’t in the Old Testament. All the symbols are there, and they snowball until we get to the Revelation. We are also given a chiastic pattern over and over again, which I believe is the key to interpreting the entire New Testament. And a new post on this thread is a wonderful excuse to post it here.

Dominion Chiasms in the Bible

GENESIS - from old world to new

Adamic covenant - dominion commanded
A Spirit
B The waters
C The Land appears
D Seven days end with a new Adam
E Breaking the law - failure to protect the bride, compromise with a beast

F Wilderness/Compromise/Giants/Separation of wicked

E Repeating of the law (warning of judgment) - rescue bride and beasts
D Seven days start with a new Adam
C The Land disappears
B The waters
A Dove
Noahic covenant - dominion commanded

EXODUS - from old land to new

A Israel in bondage - no dominion
B Destruction of Egypt to testimony of two witnesses (Moses and Aaron)
C Passover instituted
D Mass exodus from Egypt
E Parting the Red Sea
F Giving of the Law

G Wilderness / Giants/warriors / Two faithful witnesses - Joshua & Caleb
Compromise / Wheat threshed (doubters die - sheep & goats separated)
Saints clothed and fed miraculously by God / saints tested
Attack by and defeat of Amalek / Plunder used to build the tabernacle of God

F Repeating of the Law (Deuteronomy)
E Parting the Jordan river
D Mass entry into Canaan
C Passover remembered
B Destruction of Jericho to testimony of two spies
A Israel in the promised Land - dominion commanded

Jesus’ ministry and the 7 feasts

Christ’s dominion in heaven

A Sabbath - God’s rest - a dove over his ‘new’ creation, Christ
B Passover - sin removed - Christ’s atonement
C Firstfruits - brought to God - Christ’s ascension

D Pentecost - the Law revealed: written on our hearts. (Purim - Satan defeated.)

E Trumpets - brought to God - the sinners warned, the saints rescued, now allowed into heaven
F Atonement - sin removed - the wicked Jews sent into the wilderness to Azazel (destruction)
G Tabernacles - man’s rest - the marriage supper of the Lamb, with his new bride, in a new creation

Christ’s dominion over earth in heaven

All of which brings us to a first century fulfilment of the Revelation:

REVELATION - from old city to new city, new land and new world under Christ

A 1000 years from Solomon’s temple to AD 70

B Men in bondage to sin - no dominion

C Jesus turns water into wine at a wedding feast
Heals ceremonially ‘unclean’ diseases as he builds a new priesthood
Miraculously feeds many and raises the dead
Begins binding the kingdom of the strong man one demon at a time
Walks over the waters as ruler

D The Bridegroom (Christ) woos the bride, starting with the Jews. The kingdom is at the doors.

Christ as Moses - out of the city of destruction

E Destruction of the temple threatened using ‘Babylonian burden’ and Noah’s flood language (Dan 9:26) The stars (angelic rulers) will fall from heaven. The priest (Jesus) inspected the house in the city (temple) and found leprosy (uncleanness - false whiteness - whited sepulchres) He teaches with authority.

F Passover (a New Covenant) - Adam (Herod) and Eve (Jews) collude with the Serpent (Rome) against the New Adam and New Eve. Plagues held off as Christ forgives His murderers

G Exodus (ascension and firstfruits saints sealed) - “Don’t be like your fathers whose carcasses fell in the wilderness”. The church carried on the wings of an eagle into the wilderness.

H Parting the Red Sea (door opened, gospel released through torn veil, broken seals, divided Olivet) and corresponding judgments pronounced on Pharaoh/Herod]

I Giving of the Law (first trumpets, Pentecost - Holy Spirit writes Law on our hearts, fire from heaven (the altar) on the saints, reminder of two witnesses, the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah). Mt Sinai (a burning mountain) is thrown into the sea by faith. The church is still a mixed multitude.

Christ as David - ruler of Israel who was persecuted by the previous king

J 40 year reign of greater David over Israel. Woman (church) in the wilderness 40 years (AD 30 - 70) (Isaac & Ishmael still together in the house/temple) / The apostles judge the 12 tribes under His rule, with breastplates, faces of lions and fiery mouths, seated with Christ. Saints miraculously fed (New Testament scripture and gifts) / The Gospel is released; the four horsemen 1: White - conquest through purity - Naphtali - white jasper - New Jerusalem; 2 - Red - division/threshing - “I came to bring a sword” - Judah - red jasper, and Reuben - sardius, the kingly tribes; 3 - Black - starvation - onyx - Joseph - starving the Old Covenant (baker/grain/works) but not harming the New Covenant (cupbearer/wine/oil/grace/spirit) 4 - Green - emerald (like God’s throne) - Levi - the new guardian priesthood with a sword, final atonement separation of the righteous and wicked. Three attacks by Satan: 1 - Persecution by Jews (Ishmael - book of Acts), 2 - Compromise with false doctrine - Jezebel, Judaisers (giants/locusts) who have a sting in their tails, with hair like (false) Nazarites, wolves in sheep’s clothing), the false doctrine is water from the mouth of the serpent which is swallowed by the Land/Judaism.

K Christ stands as the angel with bronze pillar legs, one on the Land (Jews - priest - Jachin), one on the Sea (Gentiles - king - Boaz), and the dividing wall is broken down.
“The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”
John is told not to write the seven thunders, but to preach them to the Gentiles - the 7 judgments of God on the crooked temple. Tear down the false pillars, Phanias & Herod.

(K is the centre of the chiasm… continued next post)

J 3 - Herod/High Priest rebels against Rome the restrainer and persecutes the saints, attack by Amalek (dragon with lamb’s horns - two pillars - the false high priest and the false king: False high priest: false prophet - Adam, Balaam / false brother - Cain/Esau / man of lawlessness in the temple. False king: Ahab, Edomite false King Solomon [666 bars of gold], brings war in heaven as the Land Beast, empowered by the Sea Beast (Rome) with the dragon’s power (Satan) makes war on the church. They will be defeated by ‘the breath of his appearing’ - the parousia. Satan and his angels are cast out into the Land, (he returns with seven others worse than himself) and takes up residence in the temple (synagogue of Satan), making the springs of water (apostate Judaism) bitter as Wormwood. The wheat is threshed (sheep and goats separated - Hagar and her son cast out, Jews and false teachers “they were not of us"), the saints are tested (tribulation - the massacre is allowed by Christ (winepress outside the city) and their blood is tipped out onto the Land (as the Nile) to bring up the Avenger of all the blood from Abel to Zechariah. With the plunder (grapes - saints’ and prophets’ blood), the New Jerusalem is founded, on a spiritual mountain that cannot be touched.

Christ as Joshua - into the promised land - captain of God’s armies

I Repeating of the Law (more trumpets and the two witnesses (saints) who can bring the plagues - fire from heaven on sinners (Elijah), water turned to blood in memory of the innocent slain (Moses), final warnings to the Jews and partial judgments on the great city who rules [represents] the world). Ark seen in heaven.

H Parting the great river (Euphrates - as the kings from the sunrising [the church] enter to take the Land [heavenly country]) (as Darius diverted the river of Babylon)

G Mass entry (the firstfruits saints [grape harvest] and OT martyrs/saints [under the altar] are united and allowed into heaven) “Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on”

F Atonement - the harlot’s (Judaism’s) unworthy communion cup brings destruction into her (7 bowls poured out on the Old Covenant - the rejected 7 sprinklings compromised/mingled with the blood of the saints and prophets). She is stoned for adultery, and burned with fire as a false priest, a woman who has usurped the new Adam’s authority by killing Him: “I sit a queen, and am no widow”. Now her total destruction comes as the plagues of Sodom/Egypt/Babylon/flood fall to the song of Moses and the Lamb. The Beast (scapegoat) carries the woman (sins) to destruction. Christ’s throne has arrived over the Land, with His angelic hosts.

E Destruction of Herod’s temple (graven image of the beast) torn down because of leprosy (uncleanness), Babylon the great (dethroned from the waters) with its beastly nocturnal doctrine (3 frogs not a dove) gathered from all over the Roman empire to the mount of assembly (Armageddon) one last time (the last Passover in AD70) as her table becomes a snare, for trinitarian destruction (3 parts) and the apostate guarding/restraining cherub (Satanic Neronic Rome, the beast) removed from guarding the church (Daniels guarding beasts). “Come out of her, my people”.
The 24 angelic elders have left the temple one by one, as each carried out his final Old Covenant task, leaving the temple empty for the eldership of the saints, the new emerald rainbow. The twelve constellations (twelve tribes) have been converted into a New Jerusalem, and the original apostate angelic teacher, Lucifer, has been deposed by The Light, the angel of the Lord.

Christ as Solomon - bridegroom/wise judge - ruler of the world

D The Bride (the Church) in her glory, made of gemstones from the Land (Jews), with pearl gates to receive the riches of the Sea (Gentiles). The kingdom, right here, right now.

C Christ now enthroned over the nations (waters) as the tabernacle of God with men, the perfectly square temple, a golden cube - a giant holy of holies, healing the nations with the gospel. The dirty birds feast on the harlot, while Christ feasts with His bride at a wedding supper in heaven, with the new wine of the kingdom, a kingdom of priests, who will never hunger, thirst, nor suffer uncleanness. Satan himself is bound from deceiving the nations so the gospel can spread worldwide.

B Men freed from sin - world dominion of the twice-born commanded

A Symbolic 1000 years of the rule of greater Solomon as the saints ride out with Christ to conquer the world with the sword of His mouth (this present gospel age). Satan released as final battle with spiritual Haman-Gog/Amalek/Edomites/Canaanites - ie. sinners, surround the holy city (as did Haman, Herod/Rome), the camp of the saints (as did Amalek). Both Satan and these false brothers are defeated quickly. The dead are raised for judgment, the sheep and goats are separated one last time (wheat threshed) and the plunders go into the eternal state. Christ hands his authority over to the Father, having reigned over the nations with a rod of iron until all enemies were underfoot. “So shall we always be with the Lord.”

We can give a similar treatment to Abraham, the Exile/Restoration period (with Gog and Magog-Haman-Agag/Amalek in the middle), and with events under tabernacle/David/Amalek/Solomon/temple.

That’s why I think classing Revelation as “apocalyptic” doesn’t tell the full story.

PS Application: The Lord’s supper is a communion with the saints in heaven at the marriage supper, and it is a BATTLE feast. First marriage, then war. After the supper each week, where we commune with Christ and the saints in heaven, we ride out into the world with Christ to conquer it by proclamation, prayer and charity.