once again i think the unbiblical idea comes into play. for catholics, christianity is not a religion of the book, as in islam, or possibly in protestantism, but the church is the living body of the Word. because of this, tradition is held to be as valid a transmission of the faith of the apostles as scripture, although scripture does have a special exalted place in the life of the church. the liturgy, ie the holy mass, is for us catholics the point of the church. this is because jesus is really present here, we dont just have to cast our minds back to a historical event, jesus’s sacrafice is continued in the eucharist, he is letting himself be sacraficed by again and again. there are of course many historical sources which prove as much as can be that the so called pagan practices of catholicism trace back to apostolic times in one form or another, though as faith develops the church develops. the chuch by pronouncing doctrines define borders for the faith and say if you stray outside of these areas you are straying into error. another bone of contention seems to be Mary mother of jesus. christ alone is our saviour. through Mary, Christs face is made known. Mary is not worshipped, worship is for God alone. Mary is venerated, we ask for her intercessin, for her to pray to jesus, along with all the saints who live with God. of course we pray ousrelves, but we believe that the saints, through the merit of living the faith to perfection, can pray together with the church here on earth. in a sense, the church for us goes verticallly up to heven and those who live with christ are connected to us here on earth as we stuggle for perfection

G’day Jude,

Any thoughts on the two examples I posted in post #84 in reply to your suggestion in post #82 that “even in the first century disputes about doctrine were always refered to rome”?

Also, what evidence is there that Mary (or anyone else who may curently be in heaven) can hear our prayers? What biblical grounds do we have for asking the saints in heaven to pray for us as opposed to the saints here on earth?

And lastly, what do you make of Jesus being sacrificed over and over again in the mass in the light of 1 Peter 3:18,
[quote author="1 Peter 3:18, ESV translation"]For Christ also suffered [some manuscripts, died] once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit

and Hebrews 7:27,
[quote author="Hebrews 7:27, ESV translation"]He [Jesus] has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself

and Hebrews 10:11-13,
[quote author="Hebrews 10:11-13, ESV translation"]11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

(emphases mine)

Cheers,

Timbo

Simon Rose - 15 July 2008 10:18 PM

If Protestant Christians could do something like this in a public place, not in their own private backyard, it would do wonders for the promotion of the Gospel. We need to do more of taking the Gospel to their backyard. When you do something like that it encourages boldness for Christ because you have to be bold, and in that sense is a growing experience for Christians as well as an opportunity to serve others.

Hi Simon
We will have a great opportunity to do just that next year during Connect09!

A Catholic believer who truly wants so very hard to please God, and to receive salvation in heaven, is an inspiration to all Christians because of their sincere faith in their religion.

I actually find it very sad. That thousands of Catholics who are no doubt sincere, loving and devout really do hope that they can pleae God and receive salvation through a combination of faith and works without knowing that salvation and assurance can be had if they only trusted in Christ alone rather than trusting in a combination of faith and works.

Sincerty of faith in one’s religion has no merit if the religion is false.

Joshua

I trust Mark Gilbert is reading this.

Mark, I’ve really enjoyed reading your blog.  It gives me a sense of what it would be like to be at World Youth Day.

The answers the Pilgrims gave to the questions as to whether they are certain they will go to heaven are interesting.

What I wonder is this - how many Anglicans (even in Sydney) might answer similarly - that it is something do with the good lives they lead.

Have you ever tried this kind of question on ordinary Anglican pew-sitters?

Alan Dungey - 17 July 2008 07:50 PM

Have you ever tried this kind of question on ordinary Anglican pew-sitters?

That’s an interesting question too. And I suspect if we asked a lot of American “evangelicals” my guess is many would think that they have assurance simply because they’ve “said the prayer”. Thankfully I don’t think that that “bar-code christianity” is particularly prevalent here, though perhaps that’s simply because Aussies are generally pretty apathetic.

Alan Dungey - 17 July 2008 07:50 PM

What I wonder is this - how many Anglicans (even in Sydney) might answer similarly - that it is something do with the good lives they lead.

An excellent question Alan, and in my experience there would be more than a few in Sydney Anglican churches who would answer along those lines - which shows just how much work there is to do.
Bob

I must admit that I havn’t kept up with all that the Pope has had to say in his public utterances. I have heard a lot of feel good stuff, but?

But, can anyone tell me - has he clearly explained the gospel, and how Jesus saves us through his death and resurrection? How we can be assured of salvation by faith in Jesus, and how we have been reconciled with God and have been accepted as part of the Holy Family through demonstrated faith?

After all is said, surely, this is the entire basis of being Christian, and rescued from darkness into light.

If the Pope has done this already , where may I get a transcript or podcast of this sermon?

The fact that there is no evidence for a Christianity resembling evangelicalism in the first 1500 years of Church history clinched it for me…

Wyclif knows nothing of justification by Faith alone

or John Huss or the Waldensians....

No one early Church figure preaches or teaches justification by Faith alone..which is the heart of the Gospel for evangelicals., and to Luther the mark of a standing or falling Church.

Like Book of Mormon archeaology, evidence for evangelicalism prior to the 16th century does not exist.

Just reflect on this , how could ( if it were true and the correct interpretation) this be missing from Church history.

The more you think about it, and ponder it in your heart, the more it becomes untenable.

Don’t subject it to internal feelings..there is a way that seemeth right to a man, and the end thereof is death.

it doesnt say anywere in the bible that this book is to be the source of authority for christians.in fact that idea is in itself then unbiblical. even from scripture it seems jesus came to establish a living church, not to publish a book. to take one part of the churches tradition (scripture), and dircard the rest has played out in histroy as the fracturing of the church into tens of thousands of churches, allteaching different things. on one hand we have the evident unity of the church under the authority of rome (look at wyd to see every varied culture united through common faith). on the other “sola scripture” hand we have churches teaching as many conflicting ideas as hairs on my head! when non catholic christians realise that ‘bible alone’ is not found or encouraged in the bible itself,all the other problems with ‘un biblical ‘ doctrine fall away. in essence can we have faith in a chuch (possibly) 2000 yrs old under the pope, or a definatly 5-600 yr old church under the king/queen of england! the bible passages quoted can be interpereted in differnt ways, that is in a way the problem, but i just trust that in its 200o yr history the church has dicerned th true sense of scripture in regards to saints, real precence in the eucharist etc. the incredible witness of the saints is in a way a validation or proof for us. case in point mother theresa of calcutta (not a saint yet officially) but an example we would all recognise as someone who truly lived the gospel and as a member of the catholic church. there are thousands of examples like her that show the “truth of the faith”. oh, and thanks for your replys and not flaming me, i apreciate the chance to have my say!  ;)

Jude,

Before I can engage with your latest thoughts, could you do me the courtesy of answering the questions I directed to you in posts #84 and # 107 above? It would certainly help establish whether you are interested in having a discussion about your beliefs or if you are just happy to post ideas for our consideration without the expectation that we will engage with each others’ suggestions.

Rest assured, no flaming from me - just discussion if you want it or polite indifference if not.

Cheers,

Timbo

“Hey Jude” - ( they should write a song with that title, shouldn’t they ? )

Another difference between catholics and protestants appears to be the inability of some papists to use CAPITAL letters at the start of a sentence - or to break their long epistles into PARAGRAPHS to make it easier to read.

Cheers, Kevin

Another difference between catholics and protestants appears to be the inability of some papists to use CAPITAL letters at the start of a sentence - or to break their long epistles into PARAGRAPHS to make it easier to read.

That’s a fairly rude remark, don’t you think?

It would be much like me saying that there seems to be a chasm between the biblical literacy of Catholics and Protestants, because some Protestants aren’t very well schooled in the Scriptures.

Hi Joshua,

Kevin is one of the resident “humourists” here, so I suspect his post was meant to be a bit tongue-in-cheek, while still making the valid point that the presentation of Jude’s posts make them harder and more time-consuming to read and comprehend.

Of course, a touch of humour is often harder to convey and harder to pick up in a typed-text medium such as this.

Yours in Christ,
Terry

P.S. As a general observation, I often find it easier to prepare a forum post in a better editor such as my email program and then copy and post the text into a forum posting box.

Oh, I see.

Um, I was speaking tongue in cheek too *blushes*